65. Brave and Afraid at the Same Time with Kim Campbell

Brock Briggs  0:00  

Hello and welcome back to the Scuttlebutt. I'm your host, Brock Briggs. And every week, I'm here to bring you a discussion about how to make you better outside of the military. Today, I'm speaking with Kim Campbell. Kim is a former Air Force A-10 pilot and is well known for returning her aircraft back to base safely after being struck by a missile flying over Baghdad during the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom 2003. While a magnificent story, we don't recount the story in its entirety during this podcast because Kim has done several interviews where she gives the story in detail and she went on to accomplish many other great things after this event. I'd highly encourage you to listen to her tell the story because they provide great context for our conversation today. 

I've left a few links in the show notes where you can listen to those. In this conversation, we discuss what failing forward means, women flying fighter jets, why trust may be the most important element of a team and why she wouldn't change to flying F-18s if given the chance. Kim is extremely dynamic, is eager to give back and also has a book coming out which you should buy, Flying in the Face of Fear: A Fighter Pilot’s Lessons on Leading with Courage. You can pick that up on Amazon. You know what we're about on the show, supporting veteran businesses authors in any other endeavor where another vet is working to build something bigger than themselves. For more conversations with badass women veterans, check out scuttlebuttpodcast.co. There you'll find more episodes, the show newsletter, transcripts and more content to keep learning. Please enjoy this conversation with Kim Campbell.

Brock Briggs 

You spent 24 years in the military and what's such a significant portion of your life. I would imagine that you draw a lot of meaning from that period of your life. What do you think is the most impactful or meaningful experience that you think you had during that time?

Kim Campbell  2:09  

That’s a big question. 24 years is a lot of time to pick only one because I feel like you're right. So I spent so much of my life in the military. It was all I knew for a very long time. I think probably one of the things that I draw the most meaning from is that at the end of the day, when I stood on the stage to retire and my husband and I actually did a joint retirement ceremony. He served for 25 years and I served for 24. At the end of the day, when we stood on that stage, we pinned our retirement pins on each other. 

Our kids were by our side, like at the end of the day, we were together through it all. So I think a lot of times, you know, the military is hard. It's a hard environment. There's a lot of ups and downs. And I'm just I'm proud to say that my family was by my side at the end of it that we stuck together through all of it. And it certainly wasn't easy, especially on the kids at times too, being part of a military family and moving. It can be really challenging. But at the end of the day, when all was said and done, I still had my family by my side.

Brock Briggs  3:20  

I think one of the first things that's hit during your military career however long it may be the physical and mental health that you kind of you feel that wear and the degradation on is there I think first and foremost, and then secondarily to whoever you consider your close friends or family is secondarily impacted. And its way up there certainly. 

Kim Campbell 

Yeah

Brock Briggs

Being in the military and making it a career like that is extremely admirable with a family and I have a ton of respect for that. How did you do that? What were the

Kim Campbell  4:02  

I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, I have no idea.

Brock Briggs  4:07  

More than luck

Kim Campbell  4:09  

Yeah, there was definitely some luck involved always. But you know, I think first off, my husband and I were married for 10 years before we even had kids. And part of that was because we deployed so frequently right after 9/11. We were just gone all the time. And so we waited until much later in our career to have kids. But once we did, it really changed our perspective. It changed our priorities. It gave us something to keep us grounded and not just overly focused on work. I mean, it's kind of hard not to at times when we were commanders and leaders of teams, where we have a significant amount of responsibility, but we relied on each other. You know, having a dual military couple was great in many ways because we understood what the other person was going through. We can be that wingman, if you will, in terms of that having each other's back, right? 

And then I think we learned, oh, I don't know, I'd say very early on, when our kids were young that we couldn't do it by ourselves. We had to get help, we relied on friends and family. And we got help because we just couldn't do it on our own. I mean, I think my husband and I were both squadron commanders at the same time and we would, you know, work all day, come home just in time, get our son from the Child Development Center on base and then we'd still have more work to do. And so it was nice to have that mutual support, right? Both stayed up working together. But you know, then deployments come along and it was just really hard. And so we got help from our family, from our friends, from our neighbors, you name it, anybody that offered. We learned that we could say yes to help, which was hard at first, right? 

But we definitely got help along the way. And then I think we just also trusted our gut. I mean, we got to this point where I was a group commander responsible for about 1000 people throughout South America, Central America and the Caribbean. And my husband was a Wing Commander responsible for 11,000 people at Davis Monthan Air Force Base and I was traveling about two weeks a month. He was gone, maybe a week, a month. And it was just, it was a lot. And we had to make a decision at the end of that assignment about where to go next. And we listened to our kids and our kids were having a hard time. And a lot of people said, you know, kids are resilient. They'll be fine, you know, and they are right until they're not. And we just we kind of went with our gut. And we took a different path. We did the path that was right for us. It wasn't necessarily popular at the time because it took us off the traditional promotion track. But it was right for our family. And so I would say we got help and we trusted what we knew was right for our family, not necessarily what everybody else wanted us to do.

Brock Briggs  7:03  

Do you have any uncommon tactics or frameworks for like defusing arguments with your husband and or maybe between kids, if you've got multiple?

Kim Campbell  7:17  

I don't know if I have any uncommon techniques. In fact, I would take all advice I have on this subject because I have two boys that are 10 and 14. And they have plenty of conflict and arguments. I do my best. I say that because I don't always get it right. In fact, most of the time, I probably don't try to just remain calm. You know and try to like, take that deep breaths sometimes. Before I get really angry at my kids for doing something absolutely stupid, which you know, I've been there. I was a kid too. Obviously, I’ve had my share of those moments. I get better appreciation now of what I put my parents through, that's for sure. But no, I'm by no means an expert in this area. And yeah, this is an area where I'm happy to take advice.

Brock Briggs  8:05  

Well, maybe pull the crowd for this

Kim Campbell  8:09  

Comments would be very helpful.

Brock Briggs  8:13  

Have you always considered yourself a calm person, would you say?

Kim Campbell  8:20  

That’s a good question. I think I do for the most part, consider myself a calm person. I mean, I can get passionate about things, that's for sure. But in general, I consider myself a pretty calm person. I think I've probably gotten better at it actually over time except for maybe my kids and moments. But I think I've realized how important it is for a leader, a parent, somebody that is in charge to remain calm when things are crazy. Because I've seen that from other leaders that I've worked for just when things are not going well. Everybody's stressed. You know, it's chaotic. 

There's a crisis going on, but to have that like sense of calm that they know how serious it is too but just to have that. Just that calm and composed demeanor of like, okay, no matter what it is, we're gonna get through it. It's gonna be hard but we're gonna get through it. And I saw that a lot from leaders early in my day, primarily in combat. And it was just so reassuring to us, you know, that. Yeah, things were crazy. Things were hard but we were going to get through it. And so I think I saw that early on and realized how important it was and how much it helped me remain calm as a young follower in an organization. So yeah, I mean, I don't always get it right. But I try and I realize how important it is for the team.

Brock Briggs  9:51  

As you rose through the ranks and gradually took on more and more responsibility, would you say that you found yourself maybe not knowing what to do or freaking out internally, but feeling the need to keep a composed face for those that may be reported to you?

Kim Campbell  10:10  

I'm laughing right now because yes, I mean 100% yes, like, there were times I was like, are you sure? Like, are you sure I'm supposed to be in charge of this? Where you feel like you're way out of your element, but yet, somebody had faith and confidence in you. So you just kind of gotta keep it together and rely on a lot of your initial training and the things that you know that work as a leader. I mean, I think back to one of my early not so early, I guess I was a group commander at the time. And I was responsible for essentially a joint task force. So from all services, a huge team that went down to support the president in South America. And, you know, here I am. I'm a fighter pilot, right? Like, that's my area of expertise. 

And yet, working for me on this team are special operators. We have EOD personnel, I mean, we just have this huge spread of people that is not my area of expertise. And I think, you know, there's those moments of you're like, are you sure I'm the right person to do this? And then you just kind of fall back on the things that, you know, you may not have the expertise, so you rely on the experts, you learn from them, you listen to them. And I think a lot of that is about connecting with people and kind of creating this environment of trust, where, yes, you're the boss, but you're gonna listen to them. You're gonna get their ideas. You know, I think a lot of that just goes back onto some basics of leadership. But yeah, there are many times I mean, I can think of that I can think of a few others too where you're just you feel a little bit out of your element. And that's hard. You know, that's really hard. 

And I think I felt that way plenty of times. And it's just, yep, you feel out of your element. It's not putting on a false front. Like, it's not like saying, I have all the answers. I got this. I don't need anything like, I'm the expert. I'm the boss. It is very much, well at least for me. And what has worked is, okay, I am out of my element. You know, this is not my area of expertise. So you teach me, you help me understand. We have a problem. Let's come together and get all those ideas together and figure out how to fix it. So, short answer to that question is yes. Many times throughout my career, I have felt out of my element and worried about, you know, would I be able to handle it? And I mean, just do, there's not really anybody else that's gonna do it for you. So you just do.

Brock Briggs  12:38  

The military and life in general has a really odd way of presenting unique opportunities to people to kind of like rise to the occasion. 

Kim Campbell 

Yeah

Brock Briggs

And you regularly have the chance and have to decide about whether you're gonna do that or not. And I think that that is certainly the price of accepting that. And a lot of times, it maybe doesn't come out good. But that's what it takes to grow and to continue to like excel and in your personal and professional development to another extent.

Kim Campbell  13:15  

Yeah, I do a lot of mentoring of cadets at the Air Force Academy because I'm still here in Colorado Springs. And one of the things that I tell them is that, you know, you never know when it's gonna be your moment, right? When you're gonna be called upon to execute at that highest level. And so you have to be ready. And, you know, I think as a leader also, we should challenge the people on our team to push them a little bit to try new things, right? Get outside of that comfort zone. 

But sometimes that means that, you know, ideally, you want them to excel, you want them to succeed, you give them the skills, the training to do that. But, you know, sometimes it doesn't always go that way. And so then I think the other piece of that is, what it doesn't go as well as we want how do we react? How do we deal with it? How do we learn from the mistakes and failures? I think that's just as critical. And you know, I think back to probably some of the hardest times, I've had the worst, worst experiences, I guess, like that's probably where I came out stronger on the other side, that's where I learned, just painful going through it. But you learn so much out on the other side.

Brock Briggs  14:21  

Something you are well known for is you were flying an A-10 over Iraq back in the early 2000s. And you were hit with a missile. And I'm gonna have a link in the show notes. I'm not gonna ask you to recount the story because you've retold it several times. And I am not gonna imagine that I can do it more justice than what's already been done. But just a moment ago, you were talking about moments that you were like to the Air Force cadets about being called on about that hire to perform at a higher level. Was that one of those moments for you do you think? 

Kim Campbell  14:58  

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think sometimes you never can imagine those situations that you're gonna be placed in. Like it's almost like that will happen to me, right? You know and then it does. And I certainly knew flying missions over Baghdad that something like that could happen. And quite honestly, we prepared for situations like that. We talked about it in our briefings. I had personally kind of thought about those worst case scenarios. But I think in the back of your mind, like, we're invincible. You know, we talk about it, but it's not gonna happen to me. And that it does and, you know, flying in A-10 is single seat, right? There's nobody else in that airplane that's gonna do anything but me. 

And so when it happened, that was it. Like I just relied on my training, I relied on all the preparation I had done. You hope that you will do well in those moments, you hope that you will succeed in those moments. You know, for me, it all happened so quickly that I just had to go back. You know, I didn't have time to think about it, I didn't have time to ask for help. It's just in that moment, you rely on everything that got you to that point. And so you know, that's the message, right? You don't know when that's gonna happen, whatever it is in your life. So you wanna be ready, you wanna be prepared. You've got to put in the work so that when it happens, you're ready. But I don't think I ever could have imagined something like that would have happened.

Brock Briggs  16:30  

Like I said, hearing the story and listened to it several times from a variety of perspectives and it's truly something magnificent and the best and worst way simultaneously. While I was reading up on you and going through a lot of the content that you have available, I was wondering about this particular event and wanted to ask if that particular event had an overhang to the rest of your military career? Because that was fairly early on for you. 

Kim Campbell  17:01  

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I think that event on April 7th was, I mean, it was life changing. I mean, it was a life or death moment, it was a moment where I spent a good hour not sure if I was gonna live or die, right? And so those moments in your life have a profound impact. I feel like for me, it really, because it happened so early in my career, it really set the stage for the rest of my career in terms of like, how I dealt with things, how I realized, you know, who you need on your team in those difficult times. 

And so I think it just had a profound impact on me as I would say, as a person, as a leader, as a mom, as a wife, you know, in terms of my priorities in life. I think, often those life changing moments, those life defining moments, give you time to pause and reflect about, like, what is really most important in life? Like, are you on the path that you should be? Are you prioritizing in the right way? And so, honestly, I mean, hard to say this, but I'm thankful that I had that opportunity to reflect and learn so early in my career. It really did set the stage for the rest of my career in the Air Force, but also my life personally.

Brock Briggs  18:18  

You said it, had you really thinking deeply about who you want on your team. Who do you want on your team?

Kim Campbell  18:28  

So I use this kind of you know, from a personal and professional perspective, right? You want somebody on your team that is gonna have your back so that in the most difficult moments like they are there to help you see the bigger picture. They are there to help you see the things that you can't see. They are there to be, you know, directive when they need to be, to give you guidance and advice when they need to be. But really, to just have your back and be by your side. 

You know, that's not to say that like everybody on your team should be like that, right? You want people on your team that are gonna challenge you as well and ask those tough questions. But I think, you know, that mutual support that I had for my wingman at that moment over Baghdad was totally critical. And I sometimes wonder, like, what if I have made it back safely without him, like, I just I don't know, he was that critical in that moment. And so I think having somebody like that in your life, whether it's personally or professionally to have your back that you can count on no matter what is really important.

Brock Briggs  19:36  

Are there any character traits that come to mind when you think about sourcing that person? And I'm imagining that there's room for several of those people in your life. You know, you've got a work partner, a personal partner, a friend maybe. Are there specific traits that you think about that rank higher when evaluating somebody's compatibility with that role of “having your back”?

Kim Campbell  20:08  

Yeah, that's a great question. I think. So I think back to my wingman, who is lieutenant colonel Rick Turner. So keep in mind, I'm a young captain wingman. He was a very experienced flight leader at the time. So part of me thinks back to him and thinks back to the qualities that he had. And obviously, he was very experienced, you know, very knowledgeable about the airplane, but just that calm, composed over Baghdad in the midst of battle damage, in the midst of this chaotic situation where our ground forces are taking fire. Like he was just so calm and had the bigger picture. So I think, you know, when I think of him, I think of traits like, you know, credibility. I also think of things like trust, where I totally trusted him. I mean, I trusted him with my life. I think somebody that also has, knows your strengths and weaknesses, right? 

So almost that transparency, vulnerability, somebody who really understands you. I think those are the things when I look back at him in that moment, I think he was both tough and that he expected a lot of me as a wingman. But he was also compassionate and understanding. And you know, there was this moment over Baghdad where everything was going wrong. And he was very directive and very straightforward and very honest about what was going on. And then about, I don't know, a minute later, he comes back and he's like, how are you doing? I mean, it was just that dichotomy of this, you know, the tough, direct and then also the caring that went along with it. So I don't know. I think those are the things to me that really, that stand out to me most about having a wingman, right? In this case, a wingman somebody to provide that mutual support. I think those are the things that I look back and think that were the most important.

Brock Briggs  22:03  

It's funny, as you're saying that, I realized that I'm doing kind of something that I'm about to bash. But it's interesting when you think about and describing character traits of a person. A lot of times it's presented as the binary outcome of like, oh, you need somebody that's this when the reality is you need somebody that has a really unique combination of things. And where that directness is supported by this compassionate side that oftentimes wouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as the traditional, like we need a leader, we need this. 

Kim Campbell  22:46  

Yeah, it was. You know, I just think about like that some of the best leaders that I've had and commanders that I've had. And I think all of them, I look back, they were tough, right? They had these high expectations. They expected a lot of us and you would hear about it if things did not go well. And I'm thinking back to some of my very first squadron commanders and this was also a very busy time because we were constantly deployed, we were in combat. So there were a lot of expectations and we were getting pushed hard. 

But at the same time, they were the first people like, you know, to have your back to like, be by your side when things you know, things were going wrong at home or you name it, you know, if you get hit over Baghdad. Like to ask how you're doing and actually truly care, not just say it, but to actually truly care about you. And so I think I saw that, again. You learn from good leaders and you learn from bad leaders. But I am very grateful that I had some very good leaders early in my career that really showed me what it was like, you can have high expectations, you can hold people to a standard, you hold them accountable. You let them know when they're not making the cut. And you can be this compassionate, kind and caring person too.

Brock Briggs  23:57  

I mentioned it earlier from something that you had said about mentoring the Air Force Academy cadets. Do you apply that toughness to them? I'm curious to kind of like talk a little bit about your mentorship to them and the kinds of advice that you're giving to them, if you don't mind getting into that?

Kim Campbell  24:15  

Yeah, no, I think the short answer is it depends. Because I think, you know, a mentoring relationship is, you know, sometimes is a long process to gain that trust. And to have that, you know, have that sense of trust that you can say the hard things and you can hold them accountable. And a lot of that comes from pushing them a little bit outside of what they're comfortable with. You know, I do a lot of career counseling with them in terms of what they think they're capable of doing. And a lot of them are really selling themselves short. And so it's, you know, asking the tough questions, getting them to think pretty hard about things but also holding them accountable in terms of what's expected of them and what they are capable of doing that they're not doing. 

I think sometimes, cadets and this is probably true across military academies, right? They work so hard to get in there at the absolute top of their class. They're valedictorians, they're elite athletes. You know, they do all of these impressive things and then they get to the academy and all of a sudden is about survival. It is just like, I just wanna be average, I just wanna fit in, I just wanna get through this place. And, you know, while that's understandable, you can also push yourself to excel, you know, to try harder, to put yourself out there, to do these leadership roles and positions. And you know, I think you learn a lot through that. So yeah, just pushing them a little bit to make them a little bit uncomfortable and try something that is hard. But trying those things that are hard is what helps you get better. So yeah, I think you do it in a way. And I think, you know, it depends. I think I've always looking at my role, right? Am I a mentor? Am I a coach? Am I a parent? Am I a commander? And what role am I in? And how far can I push? You know, what's that right level based on our relationship and the trust that we have built?

Brock Briggs  26:09  

Yeah, I would certainly say, you can yell and scream and “motivate” people all day. It's something that the military is extremely famous for. But those words often fall on deaf ears, if there isn't an established trust there. And the threshold for what that trust looks like it's different than every person. And so that's really interesting.

Kim Campbell  26:34  

Yeah, I would say that the motivational yelling is not really my style. Although I did work basic training as a cadet, you know, there's a place for it all. But yeah, I think of all the cases that I've been yelled at and I'm really not listening to anything they’re saying. I'm just trying to get through that moment.

Brock Briggs  26:56  

RIght, they've got their hands in their ears. 

Kim Campbell 

Yeah

Brock Briggs 

I would imagine that mentoring a handful of young men and women in that position gives an interesting insight into kind of a different generational shift there and kind of like the up and coming Air Force, I suppose. Is there anything underlying you see in these men and women that are maybe driving them to sell themselves short? I'm curious, what leads to that? Like you said, they've got the background, they've arrived. Basically, they've kind of made it. But what is it that's keeping them from kind of taking that next step?

Kim Campbell  27:42  

I don't know if it's specific to this generation or not. I mean, I see a lot of just fear of failure, right? Fear of making mistakes, fear of putting themselves out there and, you know, not making the cut or you know, not being successful. And I think sometimes when you are so successful up to a point, I mean, obviously, these cadets have been very successful to get to the Air Force Academy. It's hard to put yourself out there. And so I think, you know, another thing that is different about this generation compared to mine is social media, right? Like, everything is on display, everybody knows everything. 

And that is really hard. And that's something that, you know, I certainly didn't have to deal with and it's hard for them. But despite all of that, you know, I honestly, I see this in some of the executives that I coach as well, right? It's a fear of doing something new, like trying something new and it not working like that sucks. But what if you try it and it actually works and it makes you better? It makes you more effective, more efficient? So I think, you know, I don't know that that's specific to the generation, but I do see a lot of that of there's this fear of it not going the way you planned.

Brock Briggs  28:53  

I would imagine maybe it's more so, like you said, less generational but maybe more so around just kind of high performer mentality than actually generational?

Kim Campbell  29:05  

Yeah, that's because, you know, you want to succeed, you want to do well and it sucks when you don't. 

Brock Briggs 

Right 

Kim Campbell  

But you know, if you don't put yourself out there, then how are you gonna learn? How are you gonna get better? How are you gonna help other people get better? I think that's a big part of it. A lot of sometimes putting yourself out there is helping others to be better as well.

Brock Briggs  29:28  

I think that that fear is really interesting and probably justified. And I don't know that I would encourage it. But I think that coming from being like an elite athlete or a lot of those students are largely operating within things that are in their control. And when you come to the military, there are a lot of things that are not in your control. You can be the hottest shit that the Navy or the Air Force has ever seen. But if your dates don't line up exactly right, there are just so many little minor things that kind of can set you back in a certain way.

Kim Campbell  30:09  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, that's, you know, to be a high performer and then come in and all of a sudden, everybody else's a high performer So now you're really just average. I mean, that's a hard reality. And it's hard for people to deal with. But you're right, the military, when you come in, I mean, they break us down to that lowest level, you know. You may have been at the top of your class, well not anymore. Now you're at the lowest rung. And so I think, you know, building back up from that and I think that's a critical piece, right? You have to, you start at the bottom and you work your way up. Let me say that again, you start at the bottom and you work your way back up again. And so I think it's all about kind of pushing yourself to get back to that point. And to me, it's all about hard work and putting in the effort. You did it before, why not do it again?

Brock Briggs  30:59  

Right and just in a little bit of a different context this time. I've read some of your work on what you call failing forward. And I would love to hear a little bit of your thoughts about what you think that that means and maybe the origins of why that's important to you. 

Kim Campbell  31:23  

Yes to me, failing forward is all about failing and then taking the opportunity to learn from it, you know, to grow from it. Because failure is a painful experience. I don't know that anybody that I know that likes to fail. But I think if you can shift your mindset a bit so that you're not looking at those failures is just like this defining moment for you, that's all about you, that makes you a failure. You look at those moments of how can I move forward from this? You know, how do I get better? How do I learn from it? And I say that, like, that's easy, it is not easy. And believe me in the moments that I have failed and the mistakes that I've made like in the moment, I feel bad about it, it sucks. It's terrible. It's not something that I wanna deal with. And then you gotta move on. And that's probably the hardest thing. 

Yeah, that I've struggled with throughout my career. Because I am really hard on myself. And I critique the shit out of myself when I make mistakes. But I've also realized that I can't stay there. I have to move beyond it. And if I think back to one of the earliest times where this was really made a reality for me, was an early mission that I flew in pilot training so not even a full fledged pilot yet, but it was one of our final missions in our formation flying. And I have done pretty well up to that point. But this mission, it did not go well. I did not fly well. It was a formation mission. So we like we talk in real tight next to another airplane and I was probably nervous. So I was breathing hard. And the mask on my visor or my visor on my helmet fogged up. And so it's just hard to see all the features of the other airplane and I wasn't flying very well and was also very uncomfortable to be really in tight next to another airplane when the visors all fogged up. 

So I eventually told the instructor in the backseat and he's like no big deal, you know, all calm and collected in that moment. And he's like, yeah, just move away from the airplane, clean your visor and get back in. Like no big deal, right? And I did. But in that time where I move back in and now the visor is clear. And I can see fine. All I'm thinking about is the past, I don't know, five minutes of how crappy I flew. I'm not thinking about what I'm doing right now. I'm thinking about all the mistakes that I made in the past 30 seconds, you know and it did not go well. The ride did not get better. Despite the fact that my visor became clear, the ride did not get better. And after that mission after we landed, I got kind of a stern talking to of like, hey, Casey, you know, you've done really well up to this point, but you have to be able to let it go. Like when things don't go your way and when you make mistakes, you have to be able to let it go. And I was like, you know, in the moment, of course it sucks. That mission was a failure. 

It was you know, I was probably the worst I'd ever flown. But hearing that like that tough talk of like, hey, you cannot stay in the failure. You got to move past it. I'm just honestly now right now, 20 years 25 years later, I can say that I'm thankful for that opportunity to fail forward because I was kind of forced to. But you know, I learned that you can't just wallow in your mistakes. You have to be able to acknowledge them, learn from them and then move on. And so it's all about that debrief moment, if you will, where you learn from it. And so I'm you know, my instructor was pretty hard on me, but you know, that happened as a young pilot. So I learned very quickly that you gotta move on, you gotta move past it.

Brock Briggs  35:03  

How do we debrief and just move on because like you said, it's not easy, but you also can't just like forget about it either like, you need to be aware of the mistake that you made if there was one made. But then you also need to get past the overhang of like, just kind of the, like a past failure also as well. Not only do you need to like physically be better at whatever it is that you're doing but you need to just not be and people probably battle that's kind of two different sides of something you need to work through. And maybe people struggle more with one than the other. But have you thought about working through either or both of those?

Kim Campbell  35:48  

Yeah, I think in terms of the debrief, absolutely. I mean, I debrief my life all the time now. You know, I learned the debrief in flying but, you know, in the flying world, right? We spent a lot of time in the debrief, probably too much time because they can go late at night. But those debriefs are where you really drill into, okay, yes, you made a mistake. But why? Like, it's the constant. It's the two year old question, why, why, why. And so you really drill down into that root cause, like, what was the root cause of your mistake? Because sometimes I find like, we will say the root cause of that person, right? That person did something wrong and we just blame it on that person. And that makes it easy. But the truth is, there is a root cause and we have to drill down to find what it is. And so you drill down to the root cause. You then identify some lessons learned that you can pull from it and then you do it differently the next time. 

And I find by like having that debrief, it's an opportunity to think about it, you talk about it, you can wallow in that moment, all you want, right? But then you have to move on. And so the debrief allows us to do that. The debrief allows us to really drill down to why something happened and then figure out what you're going to do differently the next time. And I've really, actually tried to use this in my personal life as well. And I've used it in leadership situations as well, if things didn't go well taken that I mean, even if it's like driving in the car, you know, a tough conversation that you had with somebody did not go well. And just taking the time to spend a few minutes thinking about why didn't it go well and being critical of yourself as well, in terms of, you know, did I say something? Did I do something? Did I start the wrong way? Whatever it is really just drilling into why something didn't go well and giving yourself that debrief. 

And then you know, and then you have to give yourself some grace, like it's not always gonna go as planned as you're not always gonna get right. And so, learn the lesson and move on. It's all easier said than done, though. I mean, like I said, I can critique the shit out of myself for making mistakes. But I've really tried hard to not stay there. It's not healthy. I mean, you gotta move on, you gotta move past it. And it's just, you know, it's one of those things, I think, is a continuous life progress. You're always gonna be working on it.

Brock Briggs  38:10  

Right, always kind of like tipping the pendulum back and forth a bit to find the balance of those and yeah.

Kim Campbell  38:17  

Well, it's like you know what you're supposed to do but sometimes it's just hard. And so, you know, it's that little bit a reminder to yourself of like, I know, I'm not supposed to stay here. I'm not I know I'm not supposed to continue to critique myself. It's just having awareness of it and figuring out how you could do it better the next time.

Brock Briggs  38:39  

How do you think the climate for women has changed over the course of your time in the military? You were near enough to the time when women were first getting into fighters for the first time. And I imagine a cool time and a very unique part of history to be a part of. 

Kim Campbell

Yeah

Brock Briggs

I'd love to hear what your thoughts are about how you saw that change during your time in.

Kim Campbell  39:11  

Yeah, it's pretty interesting to think about, like, if I look at the numbers, right? And I'm going to average out here, but I think when I started pilot training and, you know, walking into my first fighter squadron, I was one of 35 female fighter pilots in the entire air force out of about 3500. So about, you know, 1% ish. We're at 3% right now. We're at like 65 total fighter pilots in the Air Force. And I'm rounding numbers here. It's not a huge change, right? Like it's, you know, it's for 20 years, it's not a huge change. And so, yes, I have seen some changes, but it's probably not at the pace that it should be. I mean, there are definitely more women around. I mean, I was the only female in my squadron for a long time. 

But now you can walk into a squadron and you see four or five women and that's impressive, like just to see that the numbers differ. But I think in terms of the culture, the thing that has changed is people have realized, at least the pilots in the squadron, have realized that we can do it too, right? I feel like coming into a fighter squadron, I think no matter what you have to prove yourself, but I personally put a lot of pressure on myself because, you know, I was one of one female fighter pilots. And I think that, you know, there is this question of like, can they do it? Can they cut it? Are they gonna be, you know, are they gonna be able to handle it? And I think what we've seen changed probably because we've been in combat for 20 years is that women did just fine, like women fighter pilots, it wasn't like a big deal, right?

We sounded differently, we looked differently. But in all reality, the jet doesn't care about the difference. And you know, over time, the pilots in my squadron didn't care about the difference either. I would say that the younger generation like this isn't a big deal, right? The older generation had a harder time because this isn't something that they were used to seeing used to dealing with. And I think it was like this, we don't really know what to do around you. We don't know how to act, we don't know what to say. And so I think that's the thing that's changed over time, that women aren't such an anomaly anymore, that I mean, the numbers are still low. But we've proven that we are credible in the airplane. And I think for the most part, I'm gonna generalize, are very much accepted in the fighter squadron because we've proven ourselves. And so I think that's probably the biggest thing that's changed.

Brock Briggs  41:40  

It's such a shame to me that operating a piece of mechanical equipment like that is somehow gauged as like, there would be differences in ability there. But like you highlight with change, people are just kind of move slow, move very, very slow to kind of accept new things. And like I said, what a really unique opportunity to be a part of that. As you see, I keep coming back to this you mentoring Airforce cadets thing. But I'm curious. What you see is the interest from young women to join the Air Force or to like pursue those fighter pilot positions if you're getting the chance to talk to them. Is that drive there? Are you seeing that more so in like the people today that you talk to?

Kim Campbell  42:34  

Yeah, I think so. I mean, we've seen dramatic changes at the Air Force Academy specifically. I mean, when I was there, I think we were around 16% women. And now we're talking over 30% women. And so the numbers definitely have changed. And I think women also are, you know, they're seeing women before them do something. And they realize that it's not so unique, right? I think the other thing probably the most common thing I hear is that, well, I wanna be a fighter pilot. But I also wanna have a family. And there's this perception that you can't do whole. I mean, I have two kids. So I mean, I am married to another fighter pilot. It is possible. But it is hard. 

I mean, I think anytime you have a dual working couple, it's hard, there are just challenges. And so I think helping them to see that they can do it, that it is possible is one of the things that I really strive to do. But I think it's all there, it's just about helping to understand what being a fighter pilot is all about, you know what being a pilot is all about. But I think in any career fields you choose, right? There are gonna be demands on your time and your schedule. And so my biggest piece of advice to them is go find something that you would love to do that you wanna do. And we are seeing more and more women in those roles. And I mean, I think we're seeing it because they're realizing that people before them have done it in a way where you can have a family and do that demanding job, whatever it is.

Brock Briggs  44:01  

It really makes me wonder, I have to imagine that only time is what will equalize that. And I often wonder what the makeup of certain positions and or our defense forces in general will look like in say 50 years if it just slowly evens out to near 50/50. Or as kind of the barriers come down on many of those positions of what women should be allowed to do. Yeah, I find that an interesting subject.

Kim Campbell  44:36  

I think time will make a difference. But I think also some of the policy changes that we're seeing now, not just the Air Force but the Department of Defense in terms of the changes that we're making to help not just women but families, right? And making those changes, I think will help increase the numbers as well. So I think it will take time, but I think the policy changes are also going to help.

Brock Briggs  45:01  

Do you think that having kids negatively influenced your career?

Kim Campbell  45:07  

Not at all from a perspective of the external, right? I don't think anybody looked at me differently. Well, maybe they looked at me differently. Maybe not. But, you know, having kids was certainly a difference. But I don't feel like it was a negative from the external perspective. I think it impacted my career from a personal perspective, right? Of suddenly deploying, when you have kids is a whole lot different than when I didn't have kids, right? When I, you know, being gone more frequently, it was a lot different once I had kids. And so my priorities changed. You know, my husband and I spent a lot of time apart in our early stages of marriage, which was fine. We could handle that. When we had two young kids, you know, a one year old and a four year old and my husband deployed for a year to Afghanistan, like, suddenly that was not, that was hard, right? 

That was not something that I wanted to deal with regularly. And so I think my priorities changed. So I don't think anybody looked at me as being different in terms of, you know, oh, you can't be a commander. You can't do this. You can't do that. But my personal priorities changed in terms of what I would accept, what I wanted really for my career. So I think that's probably the biggest difference. The only other thing I would say is I also realized that by being a parent, sometimes you connect on a different level with other parents because now you deal with the same challenges. And I found that when I talked to some of my young airmen that had kids and we could commiserate about some of the things that we were going through, it actually, it builds connections on a personal level as well.

Brock Briggs  46:48  

I have an interesting quote from something that you wrote on LinkedIn recently. You said leaders have a responsibility to set the example and create a culture where work life balance is a priority, where we know people will perform better at work when their personal lives are taken care of at home, where we ensure our team has time to recharge and where we encourage people to take care of their families because it's the right thing to do. 

Kim Campbell 

Yeah 

Brock Briggs

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Kim Campbell  47:16  

Yeah, I think, you know, like I said, I've had some very good leaders but I've also had some leaders that I've worked for that, you know, it's one thing to say, hey, go, you know, take care of your family, you know, go home, spend time to recharge, but then the boss is still there, right? And like, now you feel like you can't leave. And so I think it is important to set the example. I mean, don't get me wrong, like even as a commander, there were times I stayed late. There were times I really tried to send my team home because I had to stay to do something. But I think we have to show people that it's a priority that you know, that we're willing to leave early or you know, take the day off to do something, you know, take that day of leave to do something with the kids or your family. 

It's not just about kids, but setting that example and showing people that it's a priority. Balance is kind of a funny term. And you know, there's lots of thoughts on work-life balance. And my view is this, you know, I still use the word balance because for me, I realized that it is not a 50/50 balance, like it is not an everyday thing, like I just couldn't do that. I'm not even sure I got it right, sometimes week to week or month to month. But over time, I've tried to find that balance between my personal and professional life. And it's not like they're these two separate things all the time either, right? There's a lot of times where they interweave and overlap. And so I think it's just about setting the example. It's showing people that it is okay. 

And what I've realized is when you do that, like people are generally happier at work if they feel like their home life is taken care of, you know. If people don't have time to go to the gym and recharge, then they're less likely to perform as well. So we have a responsibility to make sure that that happens. It's the right thing to do. It's not just something that we should say because that's what everybody says, it's the right thing to do for people, for families. And, you know, it's just I think you'll keep people in the military longer from a military perspective. You'll keep people in your organization longer if they feel like they can meet the demands, both on the personal and professional side.

Brock Briggs  49:19  

You said something, in that talking about how the day to day wasn't a split. 

Kim Campbell 

Yeah

Brock Briggs 

Like an even split. What does that mean?

Kim Campbell  49:29  

I feel like sometimes we feel like we have to be good at everything every day all at once, right? And what I realized that some days, like work really demanded my attention. There were days where, you know, I may stay late at work or I may come home and I'm not fully present, right? I'm home but I'm not fully present because something is going on at work that demands my attention. That's okay. I mean, that's that day, right? But then when I'm not fully present or I've spent too much time at work and I get 30 minutes with my kids and my husband before, you know, bedtime, whatever, then I try to ideally make that time up, right? Like, the next day when things are settled down at work, then maybe, you know, I make sure that I'm out the door right on time and I don't bring work home, you know. That's kind of for me personally, how I did it. It was just this give myself some grace on this day that I didn't quite get it right. 

And tomorrow, I'm gonna try it better. You know, it's just, if I tried to be like the perfect commander, the perfect leader on it fully present at work, everything's great. But meanwhile, I have a sick kid at home, like, I'm not fully at work either. And that's okay. Maybe that means that I leave work half day and go home with my sick kid. I mean, I just think there's so many different ways to look at it. And it doesn't have to be this perfect 50/50 Like, I'm awesome at work, I'm awesome at home, like, doesn't always happen that way. So it's a little bit about giving yourself some grace when it doesn't go kind of like the picture perfect plan and you just adjust, you make adjustments when you need to.

Brock Briggs  51:06  

Are there tools or things that you think about how to keep the pulse on both? Because I think that it's easy for us to tell when we really get out of balance, like really, really get out of balance, but maybe it kind of can sneak up on us. And then all of a sudden, you know, it's been three months and you like haven't fully exited work mentally. And your home life is really struggling and now all of a sudden it's a fight.

Kim Campbell  51:37  

Yeah, I think a couple of things. I mean, I think for me, like I realized things are out of whack when you know, when gym time doesn't happen. That's usually because I misprioritized somewhere because it's like me, right? Taking care of me is the first thing to fall out. So that's always my cue. But I think having somebody that can have your back right to tell you. You know, for me at work, I had a chief who was, you know, not afraid to shut the door and tell me how it was, you know and so I relied on him for that. 

I think at home, my husband also did the same for me. You know, occasionally getting those little cues that maybe I need to spend a little bit more time at home or do something a little bit differently. I think we tried to do that for each other as best we could while also understanding all the polls and responsibilities and everything that was happening on the worksite as well. So I think having somebody that can have your back for that is huge, but also knowing like what your thing is like, what is that first thing that falls out when things get out of whack? You know, when things are out of balance? What is the first thing that falls out? And a lot of times that's taking care of ourselves because we're worried about everybody else. So I think understanding that, having awareness of that is key.

Brock Briggs  52:55  

Are there things other than the gym for you that you consider very high priority on “taking care of yourself?” Because I'm an avid believer in the same thing. I don't think that you anybody is capable of helping other people in any capacity if you aren't fully present and ready to perform in a relationship context and work context, any of that. 

Kim Campbell

Yeah

Brock Briggs

What else is on that list for you?

Kim Campbell  53:26  

I think it's a little bit different now that I have kids, but I would say like when I was younger and it was just my husband and I like, how we were eating, right? Were we eating healthy or are we getting takeout all the time? Like, those are things that fall out. I think also for me as I love to read, I love to spend some time, you know, reading and that falls out very quickly, usually because I'm too tired. So I think it's just those things that you're passionate about. That usually just are your things, you know. For me now these days, we try to eat well because it's not just me, right? It's not just my husband, we have a family and growing kids to take care of. 

But for me, it's getting outdoors, it's doing those things that I'm passionate about, it's skiing, it's hiking, it's all the things that I love to do. And if I'm not doing them, then I am not at my peak. And I noticed that very quickly, you know, you can easily get rundown. But that, you know, I say that now I am now retired and I have a lot more control over my schedule. But you know, in those young days of being, you know, a young captain kind of in my junior phase of, you know, I probably wasn't as good at taking care of myself, for sure. And I've spent a lot of time at work. You know, but I was also at the peak of my career. So I think you know, just, it'll ebb and flow. There's no one right way to do it. You just have to figure out what works for you.

Brock Briggs  54:57  

You've got two young growing boys at home. It's a miracle that you can keep food in the refrigerator at all at this rate. So

Kim Campbell  55:06  

First statement

Brock Briggs  55:08  

Now would probably be the best time to ask because you brought it up, you have this beautiful bookcase full of books on here for anybody watching on YouTube, when this comes out there. What are you reading now? And what's maybe the best thing that you've read or would recommend?

Kim Campbell  55:27  

So right now I am reading Devotion. I watched the movie Devotion and I love the movie. I love so much about the story behind the action, right? There's obviously, well, if you haven't seen the movie, I won't ruin it for you. But there's a lot that I can relate to in terms of women sticking up for each other and helping each other in hard times of dealing with a, you know, a difficult situation. And so, you know, I know a movie only touches the surface and a lot of people recommended the book to me. So I'm now reading that. And it's fabulous because there's so much more to the story that the movie has the time to show. 

So I'm reading that book. I try to read something that's a little bit more fiction and then nonfiction at the same time. Otherwise, I find that I keep reading leadership books, which is great. But I need something to get away a little bit too. So I think if I were to think of like some of my top books for me, Brene Brown Dare To Lead was probably very pivotal for me. She talks about being brave and afraid at the same time. And I just love that concept because I can look back to so many times in my career of feeling both brave and afraid. You know, nervous and excited. It's that dichotomy of like, we're really excited about something but it's also really scary, too, you know, whether it's, for me walking up what we call the bring the men ramp at the Air Force Academy on day one, right? 

Like making that transition into the military world or walking into my first fighter squadron, being a commander in charge of a team that, you know, is very different from me, all those experiences I look back and I think I felt both nervousness or anxiety or worry or fear, whatever it is. But I was also really excited about it too. So this concept that she talks about in her book of being brave and afraid just really resonated with me, like, all those feelings are pretty damn normal. But you have to do something with it. So that's really what I took from her and that book. And I think it's a fantastic book. Probably one of my favorites.

Brock Briggs  57:43  

Were some of those experiences that you were just mentioning inspiration for your upcoming book?

Kim Campbell  57:53  

Yeah, very much so. So you know, I started writing my book as just putting stories on paper, just trying to remember all the really critical experiences and the lessons that went with them. You know, I think about the moments throughout my career throughout the 24 years that just had such an impactful moment for me and kind of really reliving those experiences and then really tried to define what those lessons were. And as part of her book, she also talks about a study that was done, this is Brene Brown, a study that was done about when she surveyed all of these executives and leaders. The one thing they said is that they needed more courageous leaders, you know, people that could be brave and afraid at the same time. 

And I really, that got me thinking about all these stories that I had written down because I was in the process of writing a book, but I didn't really have the big, you know, it was just stories and lessons, but I wasn't sure how to tie it all together. And I realized in writing them out that the common theme was this fear but also excitement or, you know, action that went with it. And so I started looking at all the different stories in it, very clearly started to forming into these chapters have different experiences with the associated lesson and a lot of it centered around this idea of acting with courage and leading with courage because all those difficult experiences, they were hard, they were scary. 

They were frustrating, but you know, I tried to do something with them. You know, from everything, you know, starting from my early career of getting rejected from the Air Force Academy. You know that was like how I started my military experience with rejection from the Air Force Academy. So you know, learning about having the courage to persevere, having the courage to get back up again when you get knocked down. So you know, that's what started it and it just I realized that was just the common thing that stood out to me that it was very connected with for me that it is okay to feel fear, it is okay to be worried, it is okay to be down in those moments, but you have to be able to do something with it. You have to be able to get back up again. 

You know, if you're going to be effective as a leader, all those times where you have to make tough calls, you have to make the hard decisions. That takes courage. It is okay to be worried or nervous about it in the moment, but it takes courage to get up and act and do those hard things. So it resonated with me in reading her book and really kind of sparked the idea for my upcoming book, which I'm super excited about. And I'm also nervous, right? It feels very vulnerable to put yourself out there. Because this is very much my stories and my experiences.

Brock Briggs  1:00:45  

Well I imagine that you're feeling what you're writing about in the process of releasing the book. That's very good.

Kim Campbell  1:00:54  

Well, it's also, I joke to my husband and plenty of times that I would write the book, but I wouldn't have the courage to publish it. And he just laughed, he's like, you have to take your own advice, like, you have to put, you know, put yourself out there, have the courage to do it. Because you know, what is on the other side? And at that point, I've spent so much time into it, right? There is no turning back. So here it comes.

Brock Briggs  1:01:22  

What are you hoping is on the other side of this?

Kim Campbell  1:01:26  

That’s a good question. Well, I hope, right? I mean, the whole point of writing the book, you know, I hope by sharing the stories, sharing the experiences and the lessons that go with them, that it will connect with people that it will give people just a different perspective, a new way of looking at things. I say that, you know, this book is for new leaders, right? Emerging leaders, but it's also for leaders that were experienced, right? Who just want a different perspective, want a different view on things. So I guess if I were to sum it up in one word, it would be connection. Connection with people to make a difference, to make an impact, you know, in the teams they lead whether it's their family or large teams in large organizations. I think no matter what it is, I hope it just resonates and connects with people in that way. I think, you know, that's probably on the other side of this. That's what I'm hopeful for.

Brock Briggs  1:02:21  

Would you mind sharing one of the stories from the book?

Kim Campbell  1:02:26  

Not at all. Obviously, I actually I shared one of the stories already about failure. I touched on the rejection piece from the academy is really how the book starts, right? I think it's about sometimes everything that you want in life, right? Everything that you work for, you could work really hard and it could still come out not the way you want it, which was really what happened to me for the Air Force Academy. Because I had decided that this was my path, this was my goal, this was the only thing that I wanted to do is go to the academy, become a fighter pilot. And I worked really hard. I mean, I worked my butt off in school, I got good grades, I was in a lot of different athletics. But I scored terribly on the SAT and I took it five times. I got the same score. I took a class on it and still didn't do much better. 

And so instead of that, you know, nice shiny acceptance letter, I ended up with a rejection letter from the Academy, which was really tough. But I'm thankful I had people around me at the time, who supported me, who believed in me and encouraged me to keep going. And I decided I would write the Air Force Academy a letter every week and let them know what I had done to prove that I was still interested that if somebody decided they didn't want to go, I'd take their spot in a heartbeat. And you know, I don't know if those letters made a difference. But I eventually got my acceptance letter at the very end of my senior year in high school about two weeks before basic training to go to the Air Force Academy. But I think, you know, that's the first story in the book.

And it's all about this idea that you know, what if I hadn't worked harder? You know, what if I hadn't continued on my path, my goal, my dream? You know, I think my life could have ended up very differently. And so you know, don't pass up those opportunities. You know, as a leader, your team is going to be watching to how you respond when you're faced with rejection when things don't go well. And so it's all about getting back up again, you know, getting back into the fight. So I'd say you know, that's how the book starts. The book ends you know, obviously, it's a journey through my career. So a lot of stories of flying stories and fly me A-10 specifically, a lot of those lessons came from combat, but it's everything from perseverance to also this idea of empowering your team and trusting the people that work for you. This idea that, you know, when you take off on a mission in A-10, we understand that commander's Intent, right? 

We understand our mission. But then we're trusted to go do our job and having that trust of your superiors knowing that they have your back, that they believe in you. And now you need to go what you've been trained to do. You know, that was critical throughout my career as an A-10 pilot because every time we went out on a mission, there was always this bit of unknown. We didn't really know what we were gonna go do. So I share a lot of those stories of just having to be called upon at, you know, at a moment's notice to take action to do something different to do something that, you know, you necessarily didn't know that you're going to have to do. But a lot of lessons learned came from those as well.

Brock Briggs  1:05:47  

A consistent theme that I've picked up just from our conversation so far, is a lot around trust. And one of the kind of bylines that you talked about for the book is creating a culture of courage and an environment of trust. 

Kim Campbell 

Yes

Brock Briggs 

And then how that's applied to teams. What do you think that that looks like in a team environment maybe not from necessarily a leadership perspective, but from a peer to peer perspective?

Kim Campbell  1:06:17  

I think, you know for me, I realized very quickly as a leader and a commander, I couldn't get a whole lot done if my team didn't trust each other and they didn't trust me. We weren't as effective. I spent a lot of time as a leader just taking time to get to know my team, you know, getting to know them on a personal level, easier said with a small team, right? Than a large team, but I thought that was important, not just for me, right? As a leader, but it was also important for the lower level leadership, you know, that the peer almost peer to peer leaders, their immediate supervisors to spend time getting to know each other, finding out what people bring to the table, right? What are their values? Where do they struggle? What are the things that we can do to help? 

That's good if a leader does it, but I think that has to be done across the entire organization when there is that sense of trust and camaraderie. You know, I certainly saw it in a fighter squadron. I mean, we trusted each other with our lives is really what it came down to in combat. You know, how do you create an environment like that somewhere else? You know, it's not the same, right? The military certainly has a unique experience because of the combat environment. But this idea of trust, you know, maybe it's not for lives in combat, but it's livelihoods. I mean, in an organization, we're all depending upon each other to excel in terms of our work environment. 

So having that trust, having the belief that somebody in that team is gonna have your back, having that idea that you know, the value that you bring to the team. You know where you fit into the team. You know how you help that team excel. But having that just environment where everybody plays a role, everybody plays a part. And we understand like how the person next to us like, why are they important? What do they bring to the table? So yes, I think it's critical for a leader, but I encourage it throughout the entire organization, like you said, from that peer to peer perspective it's just as important. 

Brock Briggs  1:08:32  

I've got one final question for you today. What is the question I should have asked you but didn’t? 

Kim Campbell  1:08:38  

What was the question you should have asked me but didn't.

Brock Briggs  1:08:47  

Or what do you never get to talk about?

Kim Campbell  1:08:49  

What do I never get to talk about? That’s a good question. I don't know if I have great answers to either of that. I think I don't know. It's hard because I get a lot of the what's the one thing? And I don't know that there is one thing I think, you know, what I change anything? No, right? Like there's nothing in my life like in terms of what I change it because I think all those experiences made me who I am today. So there's not anything like I don't have regrets because I don't know. Life happens, right? So I'm trying to think of all those big questions of regrets or change in anything and I don't know that I have really good answers to those.

Brock Briggs  1:09:38  

How about let's do some fun ones, then we'll get off the serious subject for a minute. If you could go back and fly F-18s instead of A-10. Would you have done that?

Kim Campbell  1:09:50  

Could I do it in addition to flying an A-10?

Brock Briggs  1:09:52  

It's one for one. 

Kim Campbell  1:09:55  

Oh, one for one. No way. 

Brock Briggs

Really? Okay

Kim Campbell  

It’s A-10 all the way, 100%

Brock Briggs

Okay

Kim Campbell  

There's a lot of airplanes I wish I would have flown but the A-10 by far is my favorite airplane to fly.

Brock Briggs  1:10:07  

Like what? What would you have made?

Kim Campbell  1:10:10  

Oh, I'd love to go back and you know fly any of the World War ll era airplanes. I think that would be amazing. Just to experience that but would I change the airplane I flew? No, no way in hell. I love the A-10. I love the mission. I love the airplane. I love what it stands for.

Brock Briggs  1:10:28  

It's interesting that you bring up the World War ll thing. If I have my notes, correct, you were at the 357th, which was a World War ll Squadron at one point. Is that right?

Kim Campbell  1:10:43  

Most of our flying units have history that dates back to World War ll. So for example, the 75th fighter squadron, my very first fighter squadron, that's the Flying Tigers. So that dates back to World War ll era. So yeah, I think here's the thing, I would say like I love the history, I love the legacy of where we came from and the people that came before us. Maybe this will help answer one of your previous questions of what didn't you ask? I think one of the things that's so important to me is this idea of sharing stories and sharing lessons learned. I am such an advocate for it because I realized that the pilots that came before me share their stories and experiences with me. 

The pilots that flew in Desert Storm share their stories and experiences with me so much so that I think part of the reason I survived that day over Baghdad was because of them because I knew about their stories, their lessons and how they were able to survive in flying missions with battle damage and flying missions and manual reversion, which is this backup system that I flew in, and I feel like their stories, their lessons, the stories that I heard from people like Tex Hill and Robin Olds, you know, who have tremendous combat experience from previous wars. You know, I got to hear their stories from them. I got to hear their experiences and those are the things that like propelled me through my career. 

And so now I feel like almost this calling this responsibility that I owe it to the young aviators, the young leaders to share my experiences with them, to share the stories, to share the lessons learned. Because someday, right? You never know when that moment is gonna be and what if I didn't share it? And I impacted somebody's life in some way. You know, I just, I feel like so much of that was given to me because it is, you know, you are giving a piece of yourself when you're vulnerable and share those stories and experiences. And so I'm passionate about it. I think we owe it to the people that follow us, that follow in our footsteps, that we share what we've learned, ideally, to make them better. There's your serious answer, came out of that.

Brock Briggs  1:13:02  

I like it. And I agree. There are many things that aren't taught in the textbooks. And especially with things that require tremendous amounts of human judgment. There isn't something that covers all of that. And that one to one pass down is how a lot of those things get passed on words. So I think you're doing the right thing.

Kim Campbell  1:13:26  

That’s the point of your podcast, right? Like you're trying to just share those little nuggets with people and something will stick with somebody. I mean, it may not fit everybody, but it's those little things that you pick up on that you never know what you're going to need them or it's like, that's exactly what I needed that day. That's exactly what I needed to hear. And you know, back in my early just after pilot training, I had a former prisoner of war A-10 pilot who had flown in Desert Storm came to the bar on a Friday night, right? Because that's what we do in a fighter squadron. And he sat around for hours and told stories. And those are the stories. 

But in that moment over Baghdad, that's what I remembered. I remember the words of the people that had come before me. There's a book called Warthog that talks about experiences of pilots that flew in Desert Storm. I remembered those stories. And, you know, some of those stories resulted in fatalities, you know, some of those stories resulted in destroyed airplanes. But I remember the lessons that came out of those. And for me, that's like, I look back at that. And I think that's one of the many reasons that I was able to survive that day because of the stories.

Brock Briggs  1:14:36  

I appreciate you sharing that. And I appreciate you going on to repeat that. And I hope that this finds the right ears today. So thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it.

Kim Campbell  1:14:48  

Yeah, I hope so too. Thanks for having me.

Brock Briggs  1:14:50  

Thank you so much. The last thing, what can the listeners and or myself do to be useful to you?

Kim Campbell  1:15:01  

That’s a great question. You ask a lot of really good questions. You know, I think, you know, to be useful to me, I don't know. I think I'd love for people to take the stories and take the lessons and go make a difference on the teams they lead, right? That's the whole point. But personally, I would love for people to connect with me. You know, I sometimes find that a lot of questions come out of these discussions and the podcasts and having a conversation. You know, I am happy for people to reach out on Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever it is and ask those questions. If they didn't get asked here and you didn't hear what you needed to hear today.

Brock Briggs  1:15:41  

I will be sure to include links to your social media in the show notes. And also, you're being way too humble. Go buy your book, Flying in the Face of Fear, March 8, go buy the book on Amazon. 

Kim Campbell  1:15:54  

Alright. I do appreciate that. Yes, you could definitely do that for me. But and I would love to hear what you think. I mean, I think that's the thing, right? You write the book you kind of hear what people think, I wanna think about it. So send me an email, reach out on social media, post a review on Amazon, all of those things would be hugely beneficial. Because the whole point of writing the book is that at some point, you hope that it connects with people in some way.

Brock Briggs  1:16:19  

Absolutely. Kim, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. 

Kim Campbell  

Yeah, thank you for having me.