55. Finding Your Purpose Before and After Service with Olivia Nunn

Brock Briggs  0:00  

Hello and welcome to the Scuttlebutt podcast. The show is an exploration of ideas, resources, business and careers all through the lens of someone who has served in the military. We talk to entrepreneurs, film producers, authors and executives to distill the learnings that help you make better decisions, think more clearly and make more money. I'm your host, Brock Briggs and today I'm speaking with Olivia Nunn. 

Olivia is a former Army officer who has previously hosted the Army Soldier for Life podcast, and now currently the Military Officers Association podcast. We talk through why your most important mission should be to figure out your calling, how the military responded to Black Lives Matter and how they should have responded, and the three most important elements of a successful transition out of service. But before we get into that, there is one week left to enter the giveaway. And if you missed that last week, I'm doing something big. Last week, I announced I'm doing a giveaway where two people will win over $1,000 worth of items, all from vet-owned businesses that have appeared on this show. 

Over 10 books, 4 pounds of specialty coffee, business coaching, a year subscription to 7investing stock market research, and a ticket to the Military Influencer Conference happening in Las Vegas next year, bunch of T-shirts, stickers swag, it's packed. All you need to do to enter is to leave a rating for the show, scroll down on your listening device, tap the stars, screenshot it and upload it to the link that you'll find in the show notes. I'll be drawing a winner for that next week. So be sure to get your entry in. The rating helps me, helps grow the show, highlights veteran owned businesses and gets you the chance to win some free stuff. I wanna take a second to thank the two major sponsors of this giveaway: 7investing and We Are The Mighty.

7investing is a stock market research service. Matt Cochrane was my very first episode on the show, a longtime supporter and is a lead advisor there. 7investing exists to empower you to invest in your future. Now what does that mean? Investing in the stock market is a complex beast. I got my degree in finance. And let me tell you that there's hundreds of 1000s of people that exist in the world just to study business and make money from that. If you think that you're going to beat the stock market by buying Dogecoin at home, I'd beg you to think a little bit more about that. 7investing provides deep dive research and analysis on individual companies each month so that you can make the best decision for you with your personal portfolio. They publicly track the performance of all their picks, so their results are transparent. They put out a ton of content to educate you through a podcast and a newsletter. 

Honestly, it's the service that I'm subscribed to that I get the most value from bar none. How many things are you subscribed to where you're just like, man, I'm spending all this money and this is all I'm getting? That is not the case with these guys. There's decades of experience behind each advisor and they solely exist to help make you money. In the giveaway, you're getting a year subscription to that for free. So be sure to get your rating in and thank you to 7investing Simon Erickson, appreciate you. Secondly, I'd like to thank We Are The Mighty. I had Mark Harper on prior and we talked about how he made the move from Combat Camera to Hollywood. We Are The Mighty publishes really really good articles, funny stories about times in military history, key figures and needs to know, it's all really really great content. 

Recently, We Are The Mighty acquired the Military Influencer Conference, which is a bunch of current and former service folks getting together to talk about what we do on this show, network, business, careers, and above all have a good time. This year's event was a huge success and they're ramping up for another record year this next year in Las Vegas. You're getting a ticket to that completely free in the gift box. Be sure to check out wearethemighty.com for more details on that as well as militaryinfluencer.com. Go leave your rating for the show and while you're doing that, please enjoy this conversation with Olivia Nunn.

Brock Briggs

One of the things that I'm always curious to like get to know people really quickly is figure out what drives them. What lights your fire, so to speak?

Olivia Nunn  4:30  

For me, I think I'm an extra introvert, as crazy as that sounds. So I draw my energy from people. And I love being around people. I'm a people watcher. I love being able to figure out why people do what they do. And I think for me, you know it's why I'm a people pleaser. And I think that kind of goes hand in hand with my culture. I am Korean-American, first generation. And I'm the oldest and early on, I've always been told that I have to lead by example. You know, it's important that everything that I do, I have to be really good at it. That's very cultural. That's the position that I hold in the family. 

And if you know anything about Korean culture, it's you're expected to do well. You're expected to do well in academics. You're expected to do well in everything and that goes back to how we place family. And the reason why it's all about family honor, you are a representation of not only yourself, but you’re a representation of your family. And I think that was a natural fit for me to go into the military. And it's about being part of something bigger and better, being part of a purpose that isn't of myself. And that for me, is what drives me. I never knew that how long that service was gonna be for me, when I joined the military ended up being a 20 year ride. And now that it's over, how do I still give back to that collective whole. And that's why I'm still tapped into that military community.

Brock Briggs  6:29  

It's very easy to kind of like walk away from the military if you want to, when you're finally exited. And it's kind of a strange sensation because your whole life is just overcome with every bit of your life is dictated by the military, what you eat, where you live, everything. And then all of a sudden, one day, it's just not. And it's almost like difficult to even find those things. Again, like if you don't have a spouse that's serving or you kind of move back home to maybe a non military town, you have your experience, but it's very, like kind of a distant thing and almost doesn't even feel real. So I'm curious, have you maybe struggled with that, like that missing sense of higher purpose? And that's what led you to wanting to be plugged in with the military community after getting out? Or what has been the driver of that?

Olivia Nunn  7:34  

I don't think so in that aspect because like I said, you know, I grew up being Korean American and I always joke that I think fitting into the military lifestyle was very easy for me. My mom ran our house and she was very regimented, very strict. So it was, so I thought joining the military was a joke in a way, right? Because to me it was like, dude, if you could survive my mom, you can survive the military, right? Like my mom was very set on rules. I also have to say, as a disclaimer, my dad was in the army. And so that's part of the reason why there was service. My dad was enlisted. He was a combat engineer. I'm the oldest of three girls and I'm daddy's little girl. 

And I knew since the age of four, that I wanted to be in the army. And because that's what daddy did. And that's what I wanted to do. But what did it mean to be in the army and what I was going to do in the army, I had no clue. However, I knew about following rules, you know. That was built into my DNA, right? It was always about obedience. And it was always about following structure. So that was easy for me. So it was there before the military and leaving the military, that wasn't necessarily a hard part for me. For me, what I struggled with was the loss of identity. For 20 years, I've been some part of a rank, right? It was, you know, before I was married, my last name was McNalus. So it was, you know, a rank, McNalus. And then it was a rank, Nunn. And that uniform had accolades and a given structure. 

And oh, by the way, it opened doors and it had some way of identifying you. And it also gave you some sense of power, right? People could look at you and it could identify you in a way of oh, I know your ability and capability based on what branch you're from and what rank you're carrying. And when you don't have that anymore and you're just walking in with a dress or suit or jeans, you're just another person. And when you're also a minority woman and oh, by the way, you're only five foot woman, you just kind of bleed into the background. And that I think was the hardest part for me in this past year of transitioning from the military is that, how do I now find myself when for so long my identity was wrapped into that uniform? That has been the hardest part for me.

Brock Briggs  10:27  

At any point, have you ever second guessed staying in for that long?

Olivia Nunn  10:35  

I don't think I ever second guessed staying in for that long. And I think the reason why is I got some really great advice at the very beginning of my career. I was a platoon leader. That was my first assignment. I've completely lucked out. I was a chemical officer for the first 10 years of my life. And the second 10, I was a public affairs officer and my first assignment as a platoon leader, I was a reconnaissance Fox platoon leader. And my captain said, hey, Olivia, you stay in as long as it's fun. In the moment that it's no longer fun, see yourself out. And while there were moments in my career that it wasn't fun, right? Who says that deployments is fun, right? There are moments that it can be fun, obviously. 

But for the most part, I loved what I did. And I think it goes back to there is a relationship, there's a tribe that is forged under fire. It cannot be replicated anywhere else and the people that you work with, the people that you meet, regardless of branch, you can't find it anywhere else. And I think even on your shittiest day, you just know that this is the place to be what you're doing. And the collective part that you're a part of is the best place to be. And I just knew that this is what I loved doing. And I think when it was no longer fun, it was around 16, 17 years. And you don't get out at that point. At that point, you're writing it out for retirement.

Brock Briggs  12:22  

I think that that's the better framing for whether the military ought to be a career or not. And it's interesting that if people were in a different compare, like somebody with four or five years in, in the service to somebody that had been at a job for four or five years. For some reason, the way that they're framing what the rest of their career looks like, is extremely different. Because the question to the person that's in the service is everybody you know, are you gonna make it a career? Are you gonna do 20? 

Are you gonna retire? And they're not really thinking about is this fun? Like they're and then the person that's working in a normal, traditional job. The second that that's not fun, they're gonna go find another job. And they're not worried about that. But for some reason that question weighs pretty heavily. And I don't think that the framing is the same for somebody of maybe a similar age and has a certain amount of years invested in it.

Olivia Nunn  13:26  

You know, I think the other part is, we the military, we don't do a good job in storytelling and shaping it and teaching our youth when they first joined that the military is actually a doorway called opportunity. And regardless if you stay in for three years or 20 years, you're going to come through that doorway, a changed person. And everything that you acquire when you walk through that door is going to shape you to be a better person on the other side. And we don't teach that at all. We just, I think, focus so much on the mission that we fail to highlight what those change perspectives are. I think all we point out is that here's the mission, and then on the backside, you can go to college. That's amazing. Don't get me wrong. 

And I think that is something we should highlight, but I think what we should highlight is we're going to give you soft set of skills. We're going to teach you leadership. We're going to teach you how to mentor, build, and develop. We're going to teach you how to be someone that other people will be able to look up to. We're going to teach you how to work with people from all walks of life, everything from social, economic, ethnic, race, political, religious backgrounds, and none of that matters. And we're gonna get it done, right? Whatever that mission is and you're gonna be able to get it done. 

And those skills or soft skills matter so much when you come out on the other side and that's what employers are looking for. But we don't really preach those things at all. And the reason I bring that up is my last job in the army was US Army Soldier for Life, which was in the business of transitioning our service members. And those soft sets of skills become so important on the back side. And I think that's what we've got to get into the mindset of teaching our service members, hey, whether your game set is 3 years or 20 years, those are the skills you’re gonna learn. And if you choose to take the route of going to college and that's why you came in, you're still gonna gain those sets plus an education. 

If you wanna go straight into employment, we've got you, right? Oh, by the way, if college isn't your thing and you wanna go into trade school, we've got a path for you as well. And something I want to highlight on that on the trade school route. You know, I think, you know, Mike Rowe, you know, dirty jobs, you know, highlights as well. You know, it takes years to build somebody with the skill set, let's use a masonary, right? A bricklayer, to build something beautiful like a house takes time and takes skill, that's not something you pick up overnight, just like you don't create a sergeant overnight, right? It takes time, it takes years to get someone with that skill set, same holds true. 

And so you don't have to necessarily go to college, but you gotta go to trade school to learn that. And right now, America needs those skill set. And they're making a lot of money. And so I submit to our young men and women that are listening to this, if you want a way to get to that other side, think of the military as a doorway of opportunity. Serve our nation, you're gonna be able to do some cool things, you're gonna have the chance to see the world, be part of a collective tribe that you cannot replicate anywhere else. And then you're gonna come through the door of opportunity and you're gonna do something great for yourself and be able to give back

Brock Briggs  17:37  

the things you've highlighted some really great things there. And I am in complete agreement on getting out of the service and having these very great skills that we can take into another job. And I don't think that anybody would disagree with that. Why do you think that transitioning to a traditional job after service is so difficult for people?

Olivia Nunn  18:06  

You know, it's a very complex conversation. You've got mental health, you've got that loss of identity. Here's the thing. Point 4, 5% of the nation serves in any one branch of service. And we have six, right? Now that we've got SpaceForce. And let's round it up to make the math easy. So 1%. 99% of America's population isn't connected to the military. And then because you know, I was Army and I can talk about the army. When you look at the army, majority of the Army's installation is in the south. And oh, by the way, when you look at the south, they're in the south of the middle of nowhere America. So they're not anywhere near America's population centers. So who are they really conversing with or talking to or located near? So majority of America, they have no idea what the military is all about. 

In fact, 50% of Americans know anything about the military. They don't know what we do, they don't know who we are. And the only thing that they know about the military is what they see in Hollywood or on the news. And you know, if you follow the news, it's all about bad news. So and then on Hollywood, of course, Hollywood is just gonna make it seem all sexy and pretty. And, you know, it's the guy that's kicking down the door, you know, they don't see like I said, those soft skills, the things that the majority of the military, right? For every guy that's kicking on the door, there's 10 guys behind or gals behind that individual. Now, all those combat support and service support positions to be able to make that mission go and it takes every single one of those positions to be able to make mission happen. 

And they don't understand the complexity to that. Oh, by the way, you know, now how do you take what we've been doing all these complex jobs that we've been doing that doesn't necessarily translate to the civilian job markets, right? How do you take I was a tank driver? Well, there's no tanks in the civilian market. How do you take, you know, an infantry man or an infantry woman or mortar man? How do you take any one of those jobs and translate those skills? You can't, it just takes time. But then at the same time, let's add some more complexity to that. We are an interesting, unique breed. The military is, right? We have seen some things. We have done some things.

We live an interesting lifestyle, we get up at the crack of dawn, we go do some PT, where you live a certain lifestyle, we're on the go all the time, we have a unique vernacular. Sometimes it's filled with a lot of color for four letter words. We're just different. And then we kind of try to go back to a different lifestyle. And not everyone necessarily gets us all the time. And depending on when we've served and where we've served, you know, we've got some scars that come with that. And not all of our service are visible wounds, right? A lot of us have invisible wounds of trauma. And we have to be able to deal with that. And I think a lot of our civilian counterparts don't necessarily see that. So they look at a veteran, they're like, well, you're fine because you don't have a missing limb. So you must be okay, not realizing that many of us can be triggered.

And we're trying to blend back into society. We're trying to go back to normal, but what is normal? How do you translate what we've done? Oh, by the way, because of our lifestyle, many of us, you know, have probably gone through a divorce or two. You know, there's just a lot of complex layers to trying to go back to once something that we once knew. And then here's the other part, some of us may not be going back to where we came from, right? Some of us maybe came from the Midwest and because of the military, they're gonna settle maybe on the East Coast. And now you're not near family or something like that. So there's a lot of complex layers to that, you know. 

And here's the other thing. I think there's a misnomer to civilian saying, well, you're tuck. I always like to use this on, because it's the very simple one to paint the picture of, well, you're a truck driver in the army. Why don't you be a truck driver in the civilian light? Well, if they wanted to be a truck driver in the civilian, they would have probably stayed in the military and continued on being a truck driver. They wanna do something different. And so it's, you know, again, translating what they've done in the military, upscaling, rescaling their skills and doing something different. And then at the same time, it's the heart and the mind, getting that kind of changed and moved into a different direction and moving them back into civilian life. And at the same time, you know, you know, how do you go back into society? And how do you merge back into society when you've done something different, when you don't necessarily speak the same vernacular and they don't necessarily understand you?

Brock Briggs  24:02  

Over 20 years as an officer in the army, I'm sure that you coached or gave advice to countless amount of junior troops getting out. Maybe speaking from some of your own personal experience, but probably more likely, just kind of shots in the dark just because you're in and you're like giving advice to somebody on kind of a process that you haven't done yet. How was your transition experience different than the advice that you had been giving for that time?

Olivia Nunn  24:40  

For me, because, you know, obviously, I wasn't going through it. My focus when I was, you know, a troop commander or a senior officer, you know, when I was doing that, my focus at that point was: what is your plan? That was always what I was looking at is okay, 

Brock Briggs 

The famous question

Olivia Nunn

Come talk to me when you got a plan. Or in fact, when I was a troop commander I would always have soldiers like, hey, ma'am, I'm gonna get out. And I'm like, okay, what's your plan? And 99% of the time, I'd get the deer in the headlight look, I'm like, I ain't signing your papers. When you got a plan, then we're gonna talk. I mean, my troops would get so ticked off at me. And I said, I'll tell you what, I'm a little biased because I do love the army. 

And at this point, I know I'm gonna stay in until retirement. You know, and I just crusted the 10 year mark. But here's the thing. I'm doing you a favor. Because what I can see, because the army also taught me to be an effective lethal planner. And so I know how to see long range planning, right? Kind of peek into the future. And this is what I see for you is that you haven't done any planning. You can't tell me what you're gonna do. You just kind of like, ah I don't know. I'm just gonna sit around on my butt and I said, you're going to end up complaining. And then you're gonna talk trash about the military. You're gonna do some dumb things. And then what, right? You're probably gonna get into some drugs, some alcohol. You might maybe reenlist again. 

Or you're just going to be sucking down some support systems, maybe not. And then what? Because you have no plan. And the only thing you're gonna do is just talk trash about the army. And to me, I couldn't see that as an answer. And yes, I was jaded because I do love the army. And to me, I'm like, I couldn't see that as the way. I don't want you to lie about the army, we're all gonna have good stories and bad stories. But I want you to leave the army with a plan. So that when you share stories about the army, both the good and the bad, you are coming from a better place. So I want you to have an exit plan. 

And if you don't have an exit plan than I as your leader, I'm doing you a disservice. Because that is my job to make sure you have a plan. So come to me with a plan. If you don't have a plan, I'm not signing your paper, like point blank. And a lot of my soldiers fought me on that. And they're just like, you should just be proud to get rid of me. I'm like, no, I wouldn't be, I'm not proud to get rid of you. I would want to keep you. I'd want to keep you to make you a sergeant major in the army, that is my goal. But if your intent is to get out, I will back you on that. But you've got to have a plan, a viable plan, whether that's college or employment. Of course, I will always push you to college. I'm a firm believer of higher education. 

However, give me a plan. And if you need help to build a plan, then tell me you need help and I will help build a plan with you. But you gotta have a plan. So for me, it was always that was the way for me in helping them exit the military. And at the time, when I was a troop commander, it was 2008 to 2010. It didn't exist this, you know, Soldier for Life because that wasn't born until 2012. But for me, it was let's build your exit plan. Let's clearly define what was out there and how you're going to get out of the military. Because I want you to look back and say, I loved what I did. And I've got good things to say about the army, even though there were shitty moments of it and it was in combat. But I loved what I did.

Brock Briggs  28:51  

And you maybe talk through what your plan was for exit, not necessarily anybody that you lead, but what your personal plan was, and like how that came to fruition. Either played out how you thought it was, thought it would or maybe not so much.

Olivia Nunn  29:16  

Yeah, so originally, the plan was out. So I am now divorced. But originally at the time, you know, I was married. I was dual military. I was married to another army officer and we have two children. And the plan was he was gonna build a company and I was gonna work for potentially a nonprofit and you know, the life was he was gonna build this amazing multimillion dollar company and I was gonna work for a nonprofit. And, you know, be fulfilled with doing something that I was, you know, passionate about and, you know, be more present for our kids and just, you know, live this life and do a lot of travel and that was the vision, right? And what we're on track for that. 

And unfortunately, we went through an unexpected divorce. Both of us and we had been together for 20 years, married for 16. But together for 20 years, we had met each other when we are brand new second lieutenants at our first duty assignment at Fort Hood. So we grew up together in our young adult life, our whole military career. He's an amazing man and amazing father and we co parent and we get along great, we're good friends. But for both of us, it's just the magic of our marriage had just fallen apart as our career was coming to an end. And you know, when you go through a divorce, at the same time that you are transitioning on the military, you know, so that's a divorce to the army and an actual divorcing your marriage, you know, and you're not ready for that. 

For me, that found me shattered and broken. And I went through my own mental health crisis. And that was not what I had planned. And for me, that found me in a very dark place and that had me planning my suicide. And I did not fully understand mental health or suicide in a way that I thought I ever would. It was a concept to me that was so, so vague and so misunderstood by me up into that point. And it took me down a very dark road. And because of family and because of friends and because faith is very important, I spent a lot of time praying, a lot of Bible study, you know, fighting a war on my knees in counseling, some very strategic calls that happen by some strategic friends of mine. You know, I'm here today.

Brock Briggs  32:06  

I appreciate you sharing that. I understand that that's incredibly vulnerable. And I respect and I have a ton of respect for that. So thank you. I think that you just highlighted how a lot of times our plan doesn't really come out or play out like we think it might. It's one thing to have a plan, but the nature of kind of what the military, what happens in the service. And certainly like, as you just shared, getting out of the service may not go exactly how you think. What do you think you just highlighted, like your friends and all of these other things were beneficial to you? What kinds of contingencies do you think that we need to have in place to backstop when our plan doesn't really come to play out like we think?

Olivia Nunn  32:59  

You know, the military teaches us courses of action, right? You have a course of action one, you have a course of action two, and you have a course of action three. And you would think that me being a lethal planner that I had multiple courses of action and I didn't. I put all my eggs in one basket thinking that this was gonna be my life. And I think at the same time, like I don't think that you don't plan for not realizing that's not gonna be your plan because no one thinks that you're gonna go through a divorce. I think for me, what I would focus on is that just be prepared for what you think you're going to do is what you need to have courses of action, right? I thought I was gonna go work in the nonprofit world. That didn't happen. I ended up becoming a government contractor. 

In fact, I remember clearly telling people, I'm never gonna be a GS employee and I'm never gonna be a government contractor. What did Olivia become? I became a government contractor. And I think, here's the thing and I heard this in US Army Soldier for Life. Like I said, that was my last job in the army, right? We are in the business of transitioning service members. So I knew that job like I knew how to transition service members. Like I should be a pro at this. Here's what we heard time and time again, is that you have to have a tribe, right? Like I said, the military itself is a tribe. But you've got to have a tribe waiting for you. And I talk about this all the time.

And we say this in Soldier for Life. 24 months previous to your exit out of the military, whether that's an ETS or retirement, you need to start your transition. You need to go to tap, need to go early, and you need to go often. It's not a one time thing because there's so much information at tap that you're going to miss it. And that's why they recommend you to go a few times. And if you're married, your spouse should go. Spouses are allowed to go, because there's some good information for your spouse because your spouse is part of your military life, right? Like they've been there for you. And they should be part of that exit strategy as well. But there's a lot to take in.

And here's the thing. You've been so accustomed to the army or the Marines or the Navy, the military as a whole telling you, when you're gonna move, right? Here's your PCS, here's your next PCS. Here's your next assignment, this is what you're gonna do, this is where you're gonna go. This is now the time for you to decide where you're gonna end. Are you gonna stay? You know, like, let's say Fort Hood is your last assignment. Are you gonna stay in the Killeen, you know, Texas area or you're gonna go back to Ohio? Because that's where you're from. You know, these are the choices that you now get to make. And that's the choice that either you as an individual because you're single or you as a family are now going to make. And that's gonna be based on opportunity, jobs. 

Maybe it could be because of the weather, right? Maybe because you're just like I'm done with the snow, and I liked the heat, right? Whatever those choices are, it is now you. You get to call those shots. But make those shots because you're making those researched choice decisions. And the other part is, there's a lot that goes into that. The other part that you need to be prepared for is you need to start building your network. I talk about this. I am a communication specialist. I am all over social media. I teach social media authenticity, building your network. You can't build your network the day you're exiting the military. You've got to build that network long before. Your network is your net worth. 

What do I mean by that? You may not be into social media, but you have to have a social media presence. Because if you don't, somebody else will have your presence, right? They're gonna own it. You don't have to have every single platform out there. That's not what I'm saying, right? You don't need to go open TikTok and Twitter and Facebook. Okay? If you're uncomfortable with social media, have at least one platform. And that platform is LinkedIn, I don't get paid by them. I'm not advertising for them. But if you don't have any social media, what I recommend is LinkedIn. And here's why? It is a business platform. It is going to be the platform that's going to assist in helping you develop your network, especially because it's gonna help you develop your network as you exit the military. And that's why I'm telling you to use LinkedIn. 

And again, you shouldn't be doing it the day that you're exiting or even just three weeks before you’re exiting. You should start developing that network long before you're exiting so that you can find your tribe. The second part of finding your tribe is, and this goes back to the earlier part of our conversation, is trying to give back or to be connected. There are 55,000 nonprofit organizations that are somehow connected to the military community. I guarantee you one of those 55,000 nonprofits is probably gonna be your title or your cup of tea or maybe your cup of joe. So find one of those that somehow resonates with you. It could be maybe Team Red, White and Blue because you're out into running or something like that. 

And so you get with your local chapter and you're hanging out with those types of people. Or maybe you're, you know, the type of person that when disaster strikes, and you're gonna be the person that's gonna grab your Jeep and get out there and like you know, do cleanup or something, that's Team Rubicon. Or I don't know you're into like something else. I guarantee you there is some kind of organization that fits your personality, your persona, that you just want to be around others that get you. Find them, find that type of tribe of veterans, seek them out, become friends with them. Because those days that you wonder why you left the military, when the other people that you work with don't get you because they never served. That's when these groups of people, you're going to lean on them. And that's why it matters to have that tribe.

Brock Briggs  39:53  

LinkedIn really gets a bad rap and I understand why and I used to be part of the cohort of people that use this kind of shit on it for a variety of reasons. There is a lot of value to be had there though. And I think that from a professionalism standpoint, that is a place where you can aggregate people to you very easily. And that like you said, that's what you need when you're getting out. You need people that are in jobs. And that's kind of what people go on the platform for, you know, there's all these other platforms, and you kind of gotta have understand the purpose of why that platform exists. If you're on Instagram, it's hey, like, look at this traveling I'm doing. These are, you know, funny videos, TikTok kind of in that same thing. Twitter is kind of like in its own realm, but there's only one reason why people go on LinkedIn. And it's for connecting with other people in a professional capacity. 

And it's just something that you got to do. I mean, you don't have to do it. But you're missing something if you aren't doing that. I wish that I had been getting what you're saying like prior to getting out. I said this on a past episode before, but talking about going through the top class, like you. You set up your LinkedIn profile in the class. But one of the huge drop off points that looking back on I realized was kind of a failure that I experienced in the class is there wasn't any drive to actually connect with the people in the class. Like that should have been a layup idea to like, hey, add every single person in this class to your network right now. Because you guys are all in the same cohort of people that are getting out and see how you can benefit and kind of help each other. Everybody on LinkedIn is generally willing to kind of help. And I don't think that there's a ton of like rudeness on the platform that there exists on some of the others.

Olivia Nunn  41:59  

Absolutely. And here's the thing, most people in the military community are willing to give a hand, right? For the most part, I do try to get back to people that have reached out and asked me a question. You know, sometimes it just takes me time. I have like over 11,000 connections, it just takes me time sometimes to kind of wait through some of the questions and you know, I do try to respond. And here's the thing, if I don't know the answer, I do try to find someone within my network that may have the answer. Because transition is hard. And, you know, it's not easy to go from living a life in uniform to now no longer living a life in uniform, it's different. And if I can help you move from transitioning from uniform to civilian life, you know, I'll try that. You know, I'll definitely try to help you with that.

Brock Briggs  43:06  

You spent a whole huge portion of your career in the army and kind of like what you do now professionally, being responsible for communication, whether that be through marketing or social or what have you. What do you think that we as individuals get wrong about communication, either interpersonally or through social media or any channel for that matter?

Olivia Nunn  43:34  

I think we all stink at communicating. But even communicators, I think just stink at communicating. And I think the biggest reason is because we're afraid to be vulnerable, right? I think we get so wrapped around the axle of trying to say what is the most politically correct thing instead of just saying, this is how I feel and what I think. And at the same time, respecting the fact that this is what I think and feel. And I think our culture has gotten to the point where we're so quick to cancel everybody out. Well, you think like that? You feel like that? Well, I don't, so I'm gonna cancel you out, which I think is horrible. 

And that's why I'm so big on authenticity. And one of the things I really like about being out of the uniform now is that I like to say things and being able to punch back a little bit more whereas when I was in uniform I was a little restrained and a little I have to say things a certain way because you know it isn't Olivia Nunn’s opinion. It wasn't Lieutenant Colonel Olivia Nunn’s opinion. It was, I'm representing the United States Army. And there's a right way and a wrong way to do that. One of the things as a PAO for the army, I was one of those PAOs that didn't get told to be quiet quite often because I did punch a little hard as a PAO. And I think one of the things is, you know, I think as anyone who uses any platform to communicate, I think the questions we gotta ask ourselves is when you choose to communicate, whether through language or photos or videos, if they are true to yourself, always be true to yourself. 

But you should be true to yourself without hurting somebody. There is no room to be hurtful or negative to someone else. There is no room for being racist or prejudice or sexist. You know, here's the truth. We're not always gonna get along. And we can respectfully disagree. But we should give grace to each other. And I think that is where we get it wrong is that everyone thinks that we have to agree with each other. No, we don't. We don't have to agree. But we have to give each other grace when we disagree. And I think that's what we need to teach each other, especially to our children, right? Especially as we raise the next generation to be leaders. And I think that's what we keep seeing play out in politics. 

And I think that's what media loves to dig into is this disagreeance is my opinion is better and more right than yours. No, it's not. It isn't. You have every right to believe in what you have the right to believe in. And so do I. And we can disagree to that. And I think the other part is, we're so afraid to show our vulnerability and have a discussion about it. And I think that impacts our ability to have a real discussion when it comes to race and a real discussion when it comes to mental health. And we're seeing that being played out in the military. We're starting to have that conversation about mental health and about leaders taking the time out to go address their mental health. It's taken time, we're finally doing it. I just wish that we could do it faster because it's impacting our readiness. And we're asking the same families over and over to raise their right hand, right? We're having generation after generation from the same family serve. 

And we can't do that, right? I said earlier, less than 1% serve. 99% is disconnected. And if you ask today's recruits, 80% of today's recruits said that they had a positive conversation about joining the service and clapping our hands, yay. But let's peel back that 80%. 80% of them had a positive conversation with a family member so we can't be congratulating ourselves. That means generation after generation of the same families are serving. We haven't had the draft since Vietnam. We can't keep having an all volunteer force with the same families. We've got to change that. And we can only do that if we have open conversation, open dialogue. And we have storytelling. And it can't be communicators always having storytelling time. It goes back to everyone sharing their stories.

Brock Briggs  48:41  

You said that as a PAO, you were kind of put down for maybe being too punchy. Can you tell me about a time that maybe that happened? I would love to hear like a specific instance, if you can share about one of those times of maybe dishing out something that you shouldn't have.

Olivia Nunn  49:03  

I think it's always, you know, like it's always been about when I would write or suggested about how we should do some messaging or communications about anything, right? My suggestion about I don't think we should write it this way. Or I recommend that we shouldn't have a conversation about this. Especially when it came to race or to religion. And I would always get that look of like, Olivia, you need to stop. You need to be quiet and sit down. And I would just and I would just throw up my hand and I would just sit down and I would just get frustrated with that. And they're like no, but this is the way we always do it. And I'm like, exactly. This is the way we'd always do it and where is that getting us? And one particular time where I got really frustrated is Black Lives Matter. 

You know, I got really animated about how the conversation was, you know, we're gonna have senior leaders talk about race and we're gonna do safety stand down, and senior leaders need to, you know, go down to the troops and talk about it, and have this real conversation. And I remember just like rolling my eyes and they're like, why are you doing that? I'm like, really? You know, that's not happening. Like, no, we're gonna make sure it's happening. Like, they have to check the block that they did it. I'm like, yeah. You know, that's not happening. You know, that they're just checking the block.

Brock Briggs  50:44  

How would you have suggested they enforce it? I mean, this was like, O-6 is probably that we're talking about at a certain level. You probably have to assume that they're doing what's being asked to them, right? Like,

Olivia Nunn  50:57  

And I said, okay, you can do all you want to make sure that it's happening, I said, but we're not equipping them to have real conversation. I said, here's the truth. Majority of the officer force is white male. The majority of enlisted force is male, African Americans. So have we given our leaders the ability to have a conversation? Like, have we taught our leaders how to have a conversation?

Brock Briggs  51:37  

So what does that look like? What do you think? I'm assuming that you're implying that we haven't done that. So in your opinion, I guess, what would that look like? How could we better equip?

Olivia Nunn  51:49  

Like, well, we give them vignettes. And I'm like, okay. And I looked at these vignettes. And I'm like, Uh huh. And I said, here's the problem with vignettes. They make it appear as if we're just reading them. They're not heartfelt. And that's the problem. When we don't allow real conversation to happen and when our soldiers don't feel like their leaders really care from here, then it means nothing, right? Then it's just a check the block. Soldiers know that, right? Soldiers know when you're doing something to check the block. And that's what I was driving in and I think where my anger came from is, it was we're checking the block because it's the race. We're checking the block because it's the sex thing that we're doing, check the block because of gender, right? And I'm just like, I'm just so tired of this BS. 

And also, I think at the same time, as a PAO, I put up a post on LinkedIn at that time. I've always in all of my posts, even as Olivia Nunn, right? I was always careful about what I posted on social media, knowing that I represented the army, right? Even though I knew that I would put disclaimer, like this is my post, my only. But you know, I know that people looked at my posts knowing that, oh, Olivia is an army PAO. I think I finally just got really tired. Because you know, my ex husband is African American. So my children are mixed. And I just, I think I finally just got tired and I got sick of it all. And I live in Alexandria, Virginia, just on the other side of DC where change can really happen, right? Where the nation's capital is really just on the other side. 

And I think just something snapped in me. And I just was tired of talk. And I put up a post and I was like, let me be clear, I opened it up and said, let me be clear. Black Lives Matter. I've never wanted to take a stance on any controversy, on any topic, on anything. I've always just kind of just let things slide or just kind of just go on or just whatever news has happened as a PAO, right? I just always kind of played the rules as a PAO of whatever's going on, you just kind of let it go. And I finally I was just like, I'm done. And I put up a picture of my head. At that time, my husband and my kids, I said, let me be clear that black lives matter. And here's why. As a wife, to a black man, as a mother to black children, here's why. And yes, I'm in the army. And I just went down the list. And I took that same anger and that same sentiment. 

And I punched it back to the army in that conversation. Like if you as leaders don't have that anger about the formation in front of you, about the soldiers in your formation, then why are you a leader? And then after Black Lives Matter, we rolled right into Stop Asian Hate, right? So we went from Black Lives Matter, which directly affected this house. And then right into Stop Asian hate, which now that directly affects this house yet again, right? That's me. And then oh, by the way, that's my children too. And that's my grandmother and my mother, right? And that family in LA that's been directly affected by that violence. And I'm like and we're not. And what are we doing? What are we talking about? Nothing. And I'm just like, I'm so like, we're having what are we doing? Nothing.

Brock Briggs  56:38  

So what, in your opinion, do you think would have been the better response? Or kind of implying that there wasn't a response? Or if there, was it was mediocre or lackluster? What do you think that that would have looked like have you been in charge?

Olivia Nunn  56:58  

Actually, believe it or not, you know, I think the Air Force was probably the service that did it best, right? The senior leaders of Air Force came out and actually, like, came out and said, we're addressing this. And not only are we doing it wrong, here's what we didn't do right And here's why we've got to do it better, right? And straight out talked about how we as a formation in the Air Force, are not doing it right, and how we have not had this conversation and how we've got to do better, and how we've got to look across our formation, and why are we not having this conversation. They’re very vulnerable about that. And they look themselves in the eye and said, man, we suck at this. And we got to do better. They owned up to that. I was like, that's how you do it.

And they did it right away. The army, what did they do? They sat on it for like, two or three weeks. And then they finally were like, yeah, we were gonna have a safe stand down day, we're gonna tell our leaders to do this. And I'm like, again, it was that cookie cutter message of like, our condolences to that. I'm like, this isn't the time to do a cookie cutter message. This is a time to own up to the fact that we have systemic racial problems in our country. And it isn't gonna go away. You don't put your head in the sand and go, hear no evil, speak no evil, talk no evil. This is real. And this is very real for our soldiers. They live this, they feel it, they know it. And so we can either pretend or we could say this is happening. And as a leader, how do I better understand you? And what can I do as a leader to better understand you? Because I will never know what it's like to walk a mile in your shoe. But help me to understand a little bit more.

Brock Briggs  59:07  

Practice a lot of that empathy. It's a very hard thing to teach. It's kind of I don't wanna say it's you either have it or you don't. But it certainly seems that way when played out in practice.

Olivia Nunn  59:21  

And I think when you do that, then that gets after the core of taking care of your people. And I felt like we missed that mark in that component. In that conversation, we had missed the mark and we could have done so much better. And then there was definitely no conversation on Stop Asian Hate, right? And then when you talk about diversity as a whole, you know, see yourself you know, it's hard, especially when you say see yourself from diversity and from gender, right? You know, we talk about there's 18% in the military is women. And then when as you climb the ranks, there's less and less women. And a huge part of that is childbearing. And then at the same time, we just don't make it to the top. 

A lot of it is, you know, Army speaking, right? To make it up to the Chief of Staff, you know, they look at they want combat arms. Well not until 2016, women weren't allowed to be combat arms. So maybe in you know, 20 years from now that'll change, right? Maybe we will have a chief of staff that will be a woman because we're gonna be able to grow the ranks of a Combat Arms general that, you know, came from there as a woman and that would be amazing to see. But yeah, like, it's been able to see yourself and it's seeing yourself in the way you look too, right? And that's been hard for me when I'm biracial. You know, I'm three quarters Korean and a quarter English, like how many biracial people run around in the military? 

There's not very many. In fact, I grew up being not enough, always being told, oh, is two Korean on one side and then, you know, two white on the other. So that, you know, that's hard. So I think, you know, race is a very important part of the conversation. And I think for me, it's like something that's always been in the back of my head as a storyteller as a communicator is that you can't run away from that topic. I don't think that's a topic you have all the time. Like, I think, you know, when you do have that you turn people off. But it is an important part of the conversation and you can't play, you know, dumb and blind to it.

Brock Briggs  1:01:59  

What do you think your time in the army, fighting some of the battles that you just described through racial issues, sex issues, et cetera? What do you think that that's taught you about the pace of change, both within a military organization and then maybe on the outside? I think one of the things I get frustrated with is speaking with people that are looking for change and I think that most people are in agreement on. But understanding that the pace of change is much slower than we would like it to be. It's hard to just snap your fingers. And people instantly think and feel and act differently. That just doesn't happen. And whether that's right or wrong, well, we could talk about all day, but it just doesn't happen that way. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are on how quickly things can or can't change?

Olivia Nunn  1:03:07  

I agree. You know, I wish things could happen at a much faster pace. But I am excited that things are changing, right? Things are changing at a pace much faster than you know, when I was younger, like I look at how things are different now for my children than it was for me. You know, my kids see themselves in this area. You know, my kids have no idea about that not enough that I experienced. You know, my kids go to school where there are other half black half Korean kids, you know, so they don't feel different or look different. And I'm excited for them. You know, like I said, 2016 the doors open, women can do just about anything, you wanna be a Navy Seal, you wanna be Ranger, you wanna be special forces? All of that is open to women, you know and I think that's amazing. 

At the same time, you know, we still have a long way to go, right? Roe versus Wade just ignited the news right about the conversation about women and their body and who can control that conversation. It blows my mind that policies that dictate what I can and cannot do to my body as a woman is still controlled by a man. This is 2022 and yet, I can't as a woman control the choices to my body. And that's not even and I get that that is not an easy cut conversation, right? Like I know is part of that is political. Part of it is religious when it comes to, you know, the conception of life and all of that, like, that's not what I'm trying to get into. I'm just at the heart of it is the choice of my body and the choice to control what happens to my body, right? 

It blows my mind that I don't even get to make that choice as a woman. And that is just one example. There are other examples when it comes to medical choices for women, that oddly enough, men still control it. So it's slow to turn in many ways, but at the same time, it's happening. And we're having these conversations. I wish that you know, there are many times I you know, snap our finger and it could happen. But we're getting there. I think the important part of this conversation and I'm a huge advocate for this is that in order to have change is that women must be present, where the change is happening, where the decision to make that change. There are 50% of that equation. And as such, men must remain at that table because they are the other 50% of that equation. You can't exclude men from that decision making. Because if not, then we're right back to square one of just women being at the table and no men, right? And then we get nowhere. 

So I'm a staunch supporter of it is men and women together, coming together to find solutions to the problem and working together as a team. And being a team and solving any type of problem. You know and that's what we're supposed to be. We're supposed to be a team, solving all kinds of problems, whether it be health problems, health crises. You know, right now we've got, you know, we've got real world problems, right? Not just problems in America, but worldly problems. You know, we've got food shortages, we've got water shortages, you know, things that I think as a world that we need to band together to have conversations about. And I would love to be able to figure that out as a team. But we got to get baby steps together done right.

Brock Briggs  1:07:36  

I was listening to a conversation that you had on the Soldier for Life podcast. And John, I think his name is, was talking about how he was not really privy to some of the issues that women face in the military, generally. And it took him a long time to kind of come to terms and understand what that was like. And that resonated so hard with me because and I've said it multiple times in several past episodes, but I had no understanding of some of the systemic challenges that women face in the military until I was seeing somebody that was in the service. 

And just hearing some of those issues secondhand, it's maddening. And like, not only is it frustrating from like, hey, you're my partner, like I'm concerned for just your general well being. But like, hey, this is an organization that I was a part of and like you are deliberately getting treatment that is just outright not equitable. Like not even coming from any, just like, basic equity, it's not there in a lot of places. And it makes me sad in a lot of ways, like I said, both from the partner perspective, but also at the organizational level too.

Olivia Nunn  1:09:05  

You know, I'm glad that you brought that up. And I think so it takes both sides, right? What do I mean by that? I think the first part is the courage to one, talk about it, right? I talked about on a past episode on Soldier for Life that I was assaulted. I was a first lieutenant during the deployment and I was assaulted by my platoon sergeant, right? And I internalized that message for a very long time and I hit it and I buried it. A lot of it was a protection for myself. It wreaked havoc on my mental health for a long time. There are times that I could talk about it and I'm very unemotional. It's just very factual when I talk about it and there are other times that it breaks me down. Because this was my teammate, right? This is the person that I trusted. This is the person that I thought would be there for me right to have my six but yet he's the one that assaulted me. 

And on the same notion, it's a learning lesson for men, right? And I talk about that for my leadership because when it was all said and done, when that investigation was done, it was kind of turned back to me, well, Olivia, what do you wanna do, right? The investigation kind of came back and it was just kind of like, kind of a stalemate. What do you want to do? And I use that as a lesson of, it should have never been my decision because wrong was wrong. The decision should have been removed from me and it should have been the full extent of UCMJ should have gone after him. And that should have been removed from me. And my leadership should have said, we're going after him. And we're gonna stand behind you. Because I was a young First Lieutenant. And I was a woman. 

And I just wasn't emotionally, I just didn't know, I just, I was broken emotionally. I had internalized a lot. I was ashamed. I thought I had done something wrong, just a lot, right? I thought I was unworthy. And so I use that as a teaching tool that no, the leadership should have stood by me. And should have said, we're gonna stand by you. We are moving that decision because you did nothing wrong. To extend the UCMJ is coming after him. And we're gonna do this for you. The second part of that is as men, right? If you see something and you know it's wrong, that you're that voice, right? And you are that champion. And you stand up and you say, absolutely, fuck no, you don't do that, right? Because that's how you change the culture is that you allow this, well, boys are gonna be boys. Guys are gonna be guys. And you just keep doing it. 

Instead of saying, no, we're gonna break this cycle. That is inappropriate. We shouldn't be doing this. This isn't the way I like it. And I feel like most men, I've learned over the years when I share my story or when I have conversations is that actually most men are actually uncomfortable too. They are like you, they're like, man, I'm so astounded that women are being treated like this or that this is appalling. But they are uncomfortable. And they just don't say anything. And so the right thing is to stand up and say, hey, we're not gonna do this. That was inappropriate. We're not gonna allow that type of culture to happen. We're not gonna allow that type of rudeness. And if you're gonna be that type of guy that's gonna do that, you can see yourself out the door. Because usually, it just takes one guy to do that. And it stops. 

Brock Briggs  1:13:13  

Yeah, I think the problem is twofold there. It's like one, it's an awareness thing. And then two, it's acting on that when you notice something, like you said, I worked with women in like a very minor role there just like wasn't a lot of females in my MOS or rating in the Navy. And without that, without having started to see somebody that was in the service, I don't know that I ever would have realized it. And that's like, it would just is crazy eye opening. And so I think that that needs to be there. But then also, you need to be able to follow up with what you just said, being able to kind of set the tone. You are what you allow, really. 

Olivia Nunn 

Yeah, for sure. 

Brock Briggs 

Wanna talk about what you are doing now, you do a couple of different things. You host a podcast. And I'd love to kind of hear how running a podcast has maybe influenced the way you communicate. Talk a little bit about the show, what you guys are doing and maybe where people can find it.

Olivia Nunn  1:14:37  

So I used to host the Soldier for Life podcast series when I was on active duty and I did that from 2019 to 2021. And when I exited the army, I started hosting a podcast series for MOAA, which stands for the Military Officers Association of America and we just launched Season 3. And you can find that wherever you pick up your podcast series, so iTunes, Spotify, Google Play. And season 3 is stories from the warfront from Iraq and Afghanistan. And some of them are superstar recipients. And in fact, the season 3 opens up with a pilot, Doug England. And in fact, we won an award, a Markham award, it's a communications award of a gold award for his story. And his story is about the Osama bin Laden raid. 

And really to highlight that podcast series, it's really about the never stopped serving series. And for those that don't know about MOAA, while MOAA says that it's, you know, the Military Officers Association, it's more than just for officers. They are a nonprofit advocacy organization. They're an organization that is all about the military community. You know, they're a lobbying organization and they advocate for our military. Everything from burn pits, right? They did an extensive work with that. Keeping us updated about changing Kohler rates. Everything from what does healthcare mean for us and you know, the changes in that. They are an organization when you're an active duty and you can't go to Congress and say, what's wrong with this? Why can't we do this? You know, MOAA is gonna be that organization that I can advocate for us and actually do something about it and make those changes for us. I am a MOAA life member. 

So that's one of the reasons for a plug, but also, you know, I do their podcast, but I just love the fact that MOAA has given me the ability to podcast for them and be able to talk about stories and about topics that really matter to the military community in a way that I wasn't able to in uniform, right? Like I said earlier, to be able to punch a little harder. And it's just a great community to be able to have these conversations in a way that is gonna make a difference, from mental health to advocacy in a way that's policy driven. And so I just really encourage you know, your listeners to check it out. Like I said, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, it's called the Never Stop Serving podcast series.

Brock Briggs  1:17:51  

I've listened to a handful of episodes on there, they're very good. And you bring up some interesting stories and conversations, which I think are valuable. For some reason, I found podcasts sort of towards the last year that I was in the service and really never stumbled across any military podcasts. But there is certainly no shortage of them. Now, there is quite a few of them. And each has its own interesting, unique take.

Olivia Nunn  1:18:20  

For sure. And then on a personal note, like I'm in the works. I hadn't announced it earlier in the year and I had some setbacks. But you know, I'm trying to develop my own podcast series with my partner. You know, it's funny, when you talk about transition earlier, right? You know, you have all these great ideas and then you realize you kind of have to take a step back to kind of recenter, recollect what you're trying to do. Because you realize that the path that you're on isn't necessarily the path that you're gonna be on. But I'm in the process of trying to develop out a podcast series with my partner and it's common to storm the unexpected and it's with my partner. He retired earlier this year. He did 26 years, 20 of it with special operations and he retired as a sergeant major. 

And, you know, like I said, you know, I retired with 20 years and as a lieutenant colonel and so, you know, the point of the podcast is, you know, we come from two different parts of the army. And not only two different parts, you know, I'm conventional. He's special operations. He was enlisted. I was officer, you know, I'm that planner, he's a fly by the seat. He's very, you know, happy-go-lucky. And, you know and I'm very structured and planned. And you know, he tends to be jokey and I'm like, very serious. So it's just like, all these opposites. It's so many different ways and just, you know, how can we bring this you know, these different personalities to play and have these conversations and by the way, we both are minorities, right? He's black and Puerto Rican. I'm Korean and English and we both have been divorced. We have children. 

And you know, how do we talk about life from a lived minority experience in the military, with all these different opposites and talk about these experiences, right? And provide that lens and have, you know, some fun conversations. But at the same time, you know, have these real conversations about these topics because they do matter. Being able to have these authentic conversations, like I said.

Brock Briggs  1:20:28  

You've spent several years and like have a ton of experience in the podcasting space, generally, what have you come to learn? Or what have you identified are some unique trends in this space? Maybe what you've found is successful or not. And maybe why podcasting is a good thing. It seems like it's, I still talk to so many people that don't know what that is. But that's weird coming from somebody that is in the space one, like doing podcasts. But also that's all I listened to, as well. I barely even listen to music anymore.

Olivia Nunn  1:21:05  

Yes, actually, I taught a class at Infos. I was invited to give a podcast speech. So podcasts is one of those rare mediums where the more niche you can get, the more popular or successful you can be. Because there, people are going to want to dial in to what they wanna hear because podcast gives listeners the ability to control what they wanna listen to. Podcast gives the listener the ability to stop, start, repeat, come back to at their time, right? It isn't like live TV where you have to be intently listening to what it is. And if you miss that key component, you're kind of screwed. Whereas with podcasts, it's like, wait a minute, what did he say? 

She said, let me rewind and kind of go back or wait a minute, the kids screaming in the background, let me pause and let me come back. You know, you could take podcasts on the road, you could do it while you're washing dishes, you could do it while you're mowing the lawn or folding laundry, you know, or studying or whatever. And so it allows you to be able to curate whatever it is that you wanna listen to, everything from, you know, crime scene type podcast to military to dating, whatever it is. And so I think that's why podcast is so popular is that you really get to curate the things that you want to listen to. It's like music, right? So many of us have such a wide breadth of music listening genres that you could do that with podcasts. And I think the other part is that because there is no one way to be right in podcasts, that anything works, right? You've got your Seven-Minute series podcast to everything to the Joe Rogan gold standard, right? Everybody wants to be Joe Rogan. 

But you know, only one can be Joe Rogan. So I think you know what works for your audience, right? So I think you know, people wanna be able to switch it up. Sometimes, you know, you just wanna get in there and get a quick seven minute listen or maybe sometimes you wanna come in and do a 40 minute session. I think whatever it is, is that if you wanna get into podcasts, define what it is that you wanna do. And who is your audience, which goes back to what I teach as a communication specialist is who is your audience, by defining your audience and then curate from there. And you know, once you know how to identify that, then you're gonna be successful. And like I said, in the world of podcasts, the more niche you can be, the more successful you're gonna be. 

Brock Briggs  1:23:48  

I think that's one of the unique things about just the internet in general. And whatever platform you use, social media wise or medium wise, you wanna start very, very narrow. And it's weird how it kind of can grow larger than that, like you think you're kind of limiting yourself by staying too focused. But you kind of need to get good at one specific area first before you can grow and kind of branch out and try and do new things. Because if you can't nail that first bit, then the bigger bit is gonna be much harder.

Olivia Nunn  1:24:28  

For sure. Podcasting is fun. I enjoy doing it, so. 

Brock Briggs  1:24:32  

What kind of advice do you think you have for people that are maybe freshly out transition, even active still and maybe starting to develop their presence online? Do you think that maybe not even just from a podcasting sense, but do you think that people ought to take the same approach to just social media, choosing who that they're gonna speak to and just try and target that small group?

Olivia Nunn  1:25:02  

Well, you know, I think you know, I talked a little bit at the beginning is, one create a presence, right? You've got to start networking, developing your network because network is your net worth. But at the same time, your presence is your brand, right? Develop your brand. And that's everything from get a head shot. This past weekend, I did a fireside chat for career development, career seminar that Jesse and John put together. It was a free event for the military. You know, they're probably gonna do another one in the spring. But you know, them and other military organizations do put together events all the time, you know, just be on the lookout. And that's the other reason why you should be on LinkedIn because you know there are organizations that put out free events for the military, but, you know, invest in a good headshot. 

John Meadows is a headshot photographer, you know, go invest in a package. I would highly recommend seeking out his services and paying for a good headshot. And here's why? You wanna put your best face forward because this is a representation of you. And also, a lot of times when you're applying for jobs, a lot of times are gonna ask for your photo, right? And you probably wanna put your face on your zoom call, right? When your face pops up. And I always say that you should get an annual headshot because your weight fluctuates. And so you need a headshot, you need to do a resume, a lot of times you're gonna put your photo on the resume. There's a lot of things that you need to do to start preparing. 

And you don't want to wait until the last minute because you can always update those things as you move along. And the other part is you want to develop that network and your brand and who you are, right? Your brand should give a sense of who you are without you talking, if that makes sense, right? Someone should get a sense of who you are of your digital presence because you've been interacting, right? You have to give into the system as well as get from the system. What I mean by that is you have to partake, you need to post things, you need to also give, right? You need to like things, you need to comment on things. The reason why you gotta do that it's part of the algorithm, right? You need to come up on people's feeds. You don't need to go crazy on it. 

But you know, you need to like a few things. You need to say, you need to comment on things. And that's how you develop and become aware on the network. And that's how people find you. You know, start looking at hashtags, right? Look at who the influencers are in that market. You don't need to go all crazy in one day, right? This is why it takes time and you got to start cultivating that, which is why I harp on at a minimum, you should be doing this 24 months out. Because it takes time because what you don't want is that you don't wanna give yourself anxiety of oh my God, I only have two weeks. And now you're trying to rush out the door and doing this because, again, transition is hard. And you don't want to try to do this all at once, right? It's like that thing, right? You don't want to cram the night before the exam, right? Because now you're stressed out. You should be preparing for it all along the way.

Brock Briggs  1:28:34  

All the best things in life benefit from compound interest, money, relationships. Your social network is certainly one of those things that falls into that category as well. I have one final question for you, Olivia. What is the thing that we can learn from you that we can implement today?

Olivia Nunn  1:28:54  

I would say the most important thing that I harp on is being your authentic self, right? Find you and be your authentic self. And what I mean by that is when I went through my own mental health crisis and I had to, you know, kind of be broken and go through all of that, I realized I had to find myself all over again. And the best advice is find that person, the person that you put away so long ago, right? That little boy, that little girl that you wanted to hide from everybody, right? The person that you're so afraid to show because you were so afraid that might be ridiculed or that you thought that people would laugh at, right? It's that most vulnerable, but yet the most secure version of you, right? 

I think when you tap into that person, that's the person that you're going to be so free with. And when you find that person, you're going to be the most happiest. And when you're willing to be vulnerable and happy with that person, you're gonna be in a better place. And I say that, knowing that's not necessarily easy, it's going to take time. But that's where you have to get to in order to be able to find yourself when you've gotten yourself out of that uniform. Because for such a long time, that's the only thing you've ever known is rank and that uniform, right? For me, it was Lieutenant Colonel Nunn, right? I had to find who I was outside of that.

Brock Briggs  1:30:43  

I agree completely. There is no reason that you can't be who you are in today's day and age. We need more weird people. We need people to be themselves and to lean into that wholeheartedly. Olivia, this is really fun. I appreciate your time. Thanks so much for coming on.

Olivia Nunn  1:31:03  

No, thank you. I appreciate the chance to share.