31. The Military Civilian Divide with Allison Jaslow

Allison Jaslow  00:00

Politicians should, if they're not risking their real lives like servicemembers are, they should at least be able to risk their political life to do right by those servicemen and women.

Brock Briggs  00:34

Welcome to the Scuttlebutt podcast. My guest today is Allison Jaslow. Allison is a former army captain who formed a love for the political sphere early on. Don't let that scare you off, though. This isn't a political conversation, but rather a conversation about the nature of politics. She shares about how grueling and long the days are working on a campaign. We talk about veterans going into politics and how a large portion of people we have in office don't have “skin in the game”, meaning never having served in the military or have close relatives that even have. She points out that that's a problem. 

And frankly, I agree. We have people in office right now dictating foreign policy and sending people off to war that maybe don't fully understand the repercussions of war. This carries a lot of relevance in light of the recent withdrawal from our 20 year war in Afghanistan and highlights the importance of understanding objectives. We also talked about the current state of female veterans care after service, particularly from the VA. 

She wrote an article a few years back that pointed out some large goals in how female service members are treated, an issue I've come to be more sensitive to over the last few years. I've had the pleasure of hosting several strong female warriors on the show. And Allison continues and upholds that trend. Please enjoy this conversation with Allison Jaslow. 

Brock Briggs

Allison, thank you so much for being here with me today. I came across your profile and was really interested on your homepage, you are being called the leading voice on the impact of the military civilian divide on our political system. It's kind of a big statement and claim there. I would love to hear about how an army captain ends up going into the political sphere after service.

Allison Jaslow  02:26

Well, first, thanks for having me. It's a true pleasure to have this conversation. And as far as me transitioning from the military into the world of politics, I was a political science major when I was in college. I was in college on an ROTC scholarship. I actually thought that was all I was gonna do in life and do it for a career like many people, when they signed up. Towards the end of my college career though, I did an internship. 

And I had done a couple of volunteer opportunities on sort of the campaign side of politics and really fell in love with that side of politics. It's real high energy. I'm a very results oriented person. It's very team oriented, which you know, not every, if you look at the world of politics these days, like sometimes you don't see a lot of like team players out there on the field sometimes, right? But then in the campaign we're all very much, it’s a team environment. 

And so when I made the decision to get out of the military, it was in 2008, the height of a presidential campaign year. And I knew exactly what I wanted to do. So I immediately started looking for a campaign. I actually feel pretty grateful because a number of my peers who also got at the same time did what a lot of veterans do. And like go on like a journey for a while, like, not really sure what they wanna do. Try one thing, oh, that's not it, you know, or find that they are missing, even if they don't miss the military. They're missing the sense of purpose and meaning in their life. 

And like, none of that applied to me. I knew exactly what I wanted to do. You know, the mission of the campaign, not just to like win, but you know, win and elevate somebody who has the same values as you really, you know, fulfilled me. So my first campaign was on a US House race in New Hampshire. And then, you know, from there, I hopscotch to a number of communications roles before I became a campaign manager and a Chief of Staff. Ultimately, you know, the platoon leader in me wanted to get back in charge at a certain point. 

And so, you know, I think in the last several years, I've not only got a chance to see up close why sort of the impact of the military civilian divide on our politics both as a staffer and realizing that like there aren't enough people who are in Congress or in even staff roles there who've had skin in the game. And you know, in many of my other roles, I've got an opportunity to see just sort of like, essentially what politicians are getting away with as it relates to service members. 

So when I talk about the impact of the military civilian divide on our political system is essentially that like we can we were allowed to go to war without anybody else having to pay the price for it. And not enough people know us these days. And so I think we've also been able to be an endless war, which is something that you probably have a view on, essentially, because they're authorizations of military force that have been open ended that politicians haven't been held accountable for, in my view, because not enough people are holding them accountable. Well, how does politics work? It's a very emotional process. 

And with not enough people either having their son or daughter over there, or like having a little a worldview into it like their event themselves. Like if people don't care enough to actually hold politicians accountable for and I think it's terrible as it relates to not only how will wage future wars based on what we've observed over the last 20 years, but I also think it has serious implications in how our service members are taken care of. 

I also think it gives an outsize influence to people who have military service credibility. You know, generals' opinions are taken arguably too much or given too much weight, when maybe they should be challenged more by politicians, right? Because those politicians don't have military experience themselves. And maybe they're afraid to, you know, slash I think that they're even military or veteran candidates who maybe aren't the best of us who still get into office because they're able to like swing in there with the flag or rock over their shoulders and running on a campaign that there are we have a war hero. 

And there are definitely examples of veterans who like maybe aren't the best humans in the world and even though I would want to see more vets in office, I want the good guys in there. And we all know people who work awesome colleagues to serve alongside anywhere. I feel like it just filibustered there, man. But hopefully, I give you a little bit of insight into, I guess, how I got into politics, but also how that shaped my view in terms of the military civilian divide impacting politics.

Brock Briggs  07:19

That's how I know that your profile and biography is actually legit. You use the word filibuster, a very political word and not much context outside of that. So you gain some buy in with me there. I agree with that wholeheartedly. And that's, I think that everybody wants to see people in positions of power that have similar beliefs and values. 

And I think that on the surface, seeing more veterans and political things would kind of rally our troops, just generally speaking about the importance of politics but in the reality is kind of a tough one. And that is, you know, such a small percentage of Americans are actually have served at any point. And so from that perspective, I agree with you but kind of to play devil's advocate for a second like it's such a small percentage of people. 

But then also on the other side too, it's like these are the people that are literally defending our country. And so if you could make the point to that politicians may not have that skin in the game, like you're talking about. And is that kind of what you think would or should be more prevalent are veterans in office and or having sons or daughters in the service?

Allison Jaslow  08:47

I mean, I think it's part of the picture. I mean, it's just, it's arguably the biggest or most serious decision any politician will ever make is to send other Americans soar. Too few of them know us or related to us. And I think that allows them to make a very difficult and serious and dangerous or like putting people in harm's way decision without, I would hope that many of them could at least wrap their head around the full weight, but you don't really know, you know. 

Brock Briggs

Yeah

Allison Jaslow 

And listen, we've made a decision to have an all volunteer military in this country. There are a lot of reasons why that's a great thing to sustain. But the problem will only get worse because you know, the World War II generation is dying off really fast. And I mean, point blank I wanna you know after 911 of course, we wanted to retaliate like the whole country wanted to. You just want somebody to like have to think twice before they do that, you know. And I don't think if you are not close enough to the people who are actually going to have to do the fighting, then maybe you don't have enough reason to think twice before you make such a serious decision, you know?

Brock Briggs  10:12

Well, I think that you kind of alluded to this earlier, but talking about this long war, we've been fighting in Afghanistan, Iraq, all over the Middle East for the last 20 years has kind of been a lot of politicians kind of kicking the can down the road of, you know, this is maybe not our problem. This is, we don't know really why we're still over here. Maybe we should have gotten out four or five years ago, maybe we shouldn't have. 

And I was speaking with somebody on another interview, where they were kind of pointing to the lack of clear goals, when we were going into the war originally. And so then we weren't really sure whether our objective was met. And so and a lot of that has to do with, you know, having people that are knowledgeable in there making those decisions about, hey, this is why we're going to invade this other country. And here's what we're looking to do.

Allison Jaslow  11:11

Yeah, for sure. And you know, and listen, there's, you know, there's roles for all of us to play to so you want people from all walks of life to be challenging these kinds of decisions, even people who maybe are complete civilians. Or maybe people who are anti war, you know, like they're gonna challenge in a different way. 

But you know, the reality is, is because of how things have transpired over the last 20 years, like, we're still fighting in the Middle East. We have these super open ended authorizations of military force that allow, have allowed actually Presidents of both parties to exploit them to put troops in harm's way. I'm all for defending our country. I'm all for about eradicating terrorism, you know, abroad. I'm certainly not weak on national security, even if I, you know, it's no secret that I am a Democrat, based on like my resume. 

But I do think we should, there should be more of a process of how and when of defining how and when we are going to send troops to war. Also for your point, because like, there should be an ongoing conversation is, once you're in war about like, why are we here? Are we winning? Are we meeting our objectives? Have the conditions changed on the ground, that should change our thinking around this? You know and for 20 years, we haven't had that conversation. It's a real shame and just service, in my view, to those who have served, are willing to serve, and have also given their life in pursuit of, you know, the global war on terrorism or whatever you wanna call it these days.

Brock Briggs  12:56

You mentioned something earlier, I'd like you to kind of unpack if you wouldn't mind. You said that you've had a front row seat to politicians that are getting away with things. What exactly are those things that they're getting away with? Is it what you're just talking about the kind of abuse of that power? Or what else have you been seeing over your time in the political sphere?

Allison Jaslow  13:22

Hopefully, I didn't mistake this. But I mean, I've had, essentially, so I've worked on staff inside the halls of Congress for a number of members of Congress. And this isn't directed at anybody who I've worked for. I just think our politics is such that it is easier to be, it was easier to support the status quo, which oftentimes is in politics like easier to support the status quo. But on an issue, like whether we should or shouldn't be in war. The fact that the status quo was always just chosen, even when people objectively could see that things like maybe weren't going well. I guess it's a little more what I'm getting that there's just easier to do the most politically convenient thing versus doing the right thing, which would be to, you know, reauthorize the war or rein in the War Powers. 

You know, regardless of what President is in power. It was always the easy way was taken out to just sort of keep things as they are right now, which is literally if your listeners don't know, the authorizations for Use of Military Force that we're conducting operations under right now were passed in 2001 and 2002. The first one before the global war on terror, which we have troops deployed under that authorization, a number of locations these days, and then the authorization for the Iraq war is still in place. And one would argue that what we would, you know, after 15 years time, maybe those authorizations should be revised, maybe even rescinded. 

Like there's a lot of different views. I think the most pragmatic view is this, like, let's have a conversation about updating this. I mean, to put a fine point on it, many politicians, not all, just avoided having a conversation. And as a matter of principle, I believe that we owe it to our servicemen and women to have those difficult conversations. And politicians, should you if they're not risking their real lives like service members are, they should at least be able to risk their political life to do right by those servicemen and women. And that's been one of the big disappointments of my career post military and politics is to have sort of the split screen of knowing that real people's lives are on the line, while at the same time politicians aren't willing to risk their political life to do the same thing. Or to do the right thing by those servicemen and women.

Brock Briggs  16:08

Do you think that, that what you call the keeping the status quo or basically what has already previously been agreed upon? Do you think a lot of that stems from just staying and like retaining power, like politicians entering into a certain position and then saying, I want to hold on to this as long as can be? And I'm not saying that that is the answer. But that would certainly speak to the longevity of some of the people and in Congress generally about how long they stay in those roles.

Allison Jaslow  16:42

There may be a little bit of that. I actually think it goes to what something I've said before, where it's like, like there aren't enough of us numbers to hold them accountable for keeping the status quo in place. So if there's not enough, I mean, just the way politicians work like, until they get enough pressure from the masses, do they, you know, do what we want them to do kind of like, on their own. And we don't have enough numbers whether it’s

Brock Briggs  17:11

When you say “we” who are you, I guess are speaking for?

Allison Jaslow  17:15

Veterans or people who care about veterans.

Brock Briggs

Okay

Allison Jaslow

There aren't enough in numbers to let's just say, like, during the height of the war to like. There are a few points where it got close, you saw this in like 2006 where there was like enough Americans who were really kind of like over the situation in Iraq, especially where there was a lot of political stuff boiling up that politicians had to reckon with. 

And you saw a big wave of Democrats actually going into office in 2006 is because of that. But generally speaking, there aren't enough Veterans Service members or people who love them to create a critical mass that would prompt politicians to want to do the right thing, if that makes sense. Because in essence, it's just, it's a fact of politics, I won't even say it's like tragic. It's just a fact of politicians that like they're not gonna necessarily just do it on their own. 

There are very few politicians on both sides of the aisle who are at least in today's day and age, maybe it was different in different time, who are just like people have principle through and through. Many of them and this is how our system is built, are just very responsive to the electorate that represented them. And so if there's not enough pressure from that particular electorate to make a decision, act on something, support something, then they just simply won't.

Brock Briggs  18:36

What do you think is the answer to that? Is it, you know, we're talking about having more politicians with the skin in the game, is that veterans need to be more vocal, is it? I mean, you're, I think, a fine example of somebody who is a veteran and very vocal about some of the issues that you think are important is that. Do we just need more people doing that and like raising a huge fuss and the news to like draw attention to some of these issues? Or what kind of recourse is there?

Allison Jaslow  19:09

So I certainly don't have all the answers here.

Brock Briggs  19:12

Oh, that's why I asked you to come on because I thought you did have.

Allison Jaslow  19:16

But I will say it's a combination of things. I do think it's really great that we're at a point in at least our generation, the post 911 generation, where you now have voices that are elevating both in the media. Who can, let's call it when there's a next conflict or next flare up that those veteran voices are out there that are conservative hopefully in a responsible way, be voices for the community and help average citizens understand our experience, how we think through this, etc. 

And then maybe that can shape their view. I think it's also great that many post 911 generation veterans are beginning to get into office and hopefully more will be. Again I will underscore point I made before that we wanted to be the good ones not the ones who like, you know, we could do without. But maybe some of them have the capacity to, you know, both a, like, do the right thing when it comes to matters of war without even being pressured. But they're also gonna view that different, that decision with a different lens. 

And so, you know, maybe that can help shape things. You know, a proposal recently, to include women and selective service. I think whether it goes over or not, I think is starting an interesting conversation about who we're asking to sacrifice in our country. And I think just even having that conversation, I think is a valuable conversation to be had. Otherwise, I look just going forward. You know, one of the shames of the worst of the last 20 years is the American people. Even if we still had an all volunteer military, the American people didn't have to pay more tax dollars and all that. 

And even if they felt, let's not even say it that pitch, if that was a part of the conversation, it was like, okay, guys, we're all decided that we're going to retaliate against Osama bin Laden. We're going to war in Afghanistan. These fine young men and women, they're gonna go over there and fight for all of the rest of you. I would like you to buy war bonds or we're gonna raise your taxes 20%, you know, or something like that. I think if a conversation like that was had it still may have been an easy, yes. But don't you? 

I would argue that even if it was immediate easy yes out of the gate, that if like, five years, in six years, 10 years in, everyone's still being asked to buy war bonds. Everybody's taxes are still really, really high, or we keep renewing it or whatever else. Like, maybe things wouldn't have persisted as long as they did. Because the cost benefit analysis for the average American would have been at least included their own pocket book and would have included their household in some respect.

And that's something that's very, very different from our like, our generation’s wars and World War ll. And then of course, the difference with the Vietnam War is that a draft was still in existence then. And so everybody knew that they were basically subjects of the draft. And that sort of helped shape how that we were played out, or in turn, when the will to be at war anymore, you know, finally receded in our country.

Brock Briggs  22:43

So do you think that having women's select or having or requiring them to be part of the Selective Service like the same way that all males are now? Do you think that that would better align the incentives of the American people with kind of like global? I don't know what I'm trying to say there. Are missions overseas like is that? Do you think that that puts those things better together? Because like you just pointed out there with Vietnam, I mean quite literally, the opinions of the war drastically changed. And the country was kind of a force to be reckoned with itself when just the outcry of the people was so overwhelming.

Allison Jaslow  23:33

Yeah, because what's different from them than in the last 20 years, again, it's like, in this last war, you're able to send somebody else's son or daughter. Like most Americans, were able to send somebody else's son or daughter and not have to save it, like pay a financial price for it either. I think, you know, I don't really see a time where a draft will come back in this country. But what I will say is 18 year old young women didn't have to do what you did, which was sign up for the selective service, even learn what it is. Decide like, whether you're gonna sign up for it, even if we think it's not a realistic political thing to do, because if you don't sign up for it, you can't apply for or get granted student aid if you go to college. 

And I think the nation would be better if every young American at least had to like understand what that is, why it exists and understand. I think it's a good tool to understand your role as a citizen at a very basic level, at a young age. The other thing at least for me, this again, I think that there's it's just worthwhile to have the conversation around women in selective service, even if a lot of people don't think the draft is gonna happen just because I think like it's a good conversation to have, especially for a young generations. It's just now coming up, you know, that probably doesn't have a lot of exposure to the wars. 

But for me personally, it's actually something I support because I don't think that women in America can have full equality if there isn't a quality of sacrifice. And I stand behind the all volunteer military and all of its merits. But I think as long as we still have a selective service in place, everybody should have to sign up for it. And understand that like, this country that we have exists because of ordinary citizens being willing to sacrifice for this great American idea. And if you wanna be fully equal as a woman in this country, that should include Selective Service.

Brock Briggs  25:42

I agree with you. I 100% agree with you. And I think that you made some really good points there about some things that I haven't really thought about before about aligning kind of just incentives generally. And it's one of those things that frustrates the hell out of me, because nobody in this country would say, we don't support veterans. Like nobody would say that and but it's such like a surface level, like kind of lackadaisical response, because like, oh, well, of course, we support the troops or whatever. But we hate what's going on over there or whatever. 

And there's kind of just this disconnect and like, lack of understanding, I think that happens. And it's like, well, you want to trash what troops and stuff are doing over in Afghanistan. But you know, under political order, hey, you're gonna go and do this. And like, that's what's being asked of you. But oh, we support the troops or whatever. Like, well, what is it? And I grew up around a lot of people my age just with blatant disrespect for people in the military. And then after joining and then coming home and it just, it agitates me to no end. 

And I think that it's now being seen. I've had several conversations with several higher ranking folks on the show here, even talking about recruiting efforts. And it's like, they literally can't pay people to join because nobody gives a shit anymore. And I shouldn't say any more. I really try to avoid time reference things because it's always like, well, back in my day, this that or whatever. It's not that, it's probably been something that's happened more so but over time, but maybe it's just more prevalent or more visible now.

Allison Jaslow  27:33

Well, so I feel like you touched on two things. One, you very well described sort of, like some of the consequences of the military civilian divide yourself, the disconnect that you've mentioned. But it's also like many Americans are speaking out of both sides of their mouths, right? Like you've got the ones who are like, “Oh, I really respected admire your service and people who serve and whatnot, but I don't want my kid to serve,” you know. Or you actually have for as many people who genuinely do admire service and those of us who have served like, literally feel it's beneath their kids. You know and I think it's been a shame for me to encounter that because of how much you do see people sort of like Latinos. 

But there are a decent amount of people out there who just think that like, you know, they don't wanna send their kid in danger, even if they're like really respect people who will do it. But then also, like people who just think that their kids or their family or whatever is too good for that, which I don't really understand. I mean, I guess I feel grateful. And, you know, I'd love to hear sort of your why in terms of why you join but like I just really love this country. 

And like to me, I was drawn to service because it felt like, I don't know, an honor and like a privilege. You know, that's kind of how I viewed it walking in. And then and that was before, you know, we went to war because I signed up for I mean, I fell in love with the army. And that was like my dream when I was in high school. But I signed up at, I started college on my ROTC contract in the fall of 2000. So we were peacetime more than two. But yeah, why? If you don't mind me interviewing the interviewer for a second. What drew you into service?

Brock Briggs  29:30

Yeah, I wanna make a quick comment about something before I forget, but I will get into that. But yeah, there that whole like, beneath you thing is so wrong. And it's like, ah yeah, that's great that you did that and whatever. But, you know, I'm not gonna do it. And you know, I don't want anybody I know to do it. I remember a specific interaction I had with somebody who I thankfully don't know any longer. 

But this individual like thought that I joined and thought that me and my friends joined the Navy because we weren't smart enough to get into college. And I just like, my blood just starts even boiling even thinking about it because it was such, I was so angry. And I know that that doesn't accurately depict like, probably 99% of the people in the service. And you know, for the 1% that it does, like so what?

Allison Jaslow  30:30

Yeah, that's well, that's really unfortunate.

Brock Briggs  30:34

What that individual said, I think accurately depicts more of the generational stuff that I was talking about, about people that I grew up with, and that just like I can't tolerate that. I want to respect and will happily listen to many people's opinions, but I just won't kind of tolerate that type of just kind of blatant disrespect.

Allison Jaslow  30:58

Yeah, I think there's some ignorance there, too. You know, part of me also wonders if like, again, and this is something we're just gonna have to reckon with because we've made a choice to have an all volunteer military. But it's like, over time, less people will have like grandfathers who have served, you know, who they like, really admire and respect, etc. You know and so I wonder how that begins to shape people's opinions. 

And or you know, it's like people filling in the blanks as well, too, right? Because they have ignorance or just like making a bunch of assumptions. You know, I was about to say, you know, it's funny, I almost because I just wanted to be in the army so badly. I almost enlisted myself. And then I ended up getting a real good deal at the end of the day but there are a lot of. Candidly, I had soldiers who are smarter than some of the other officers I served with. So that is just like, a really poor assumption.

Brock Briggs  31:50

Right.

Allison Jaslow  31:53

And I even had somebody like, feel comfortable enough. I guess this gets to your point about disrespect, feel comfortable enough to actually let you know that, you know.

Brock Briggs  32:05

Oh, I know. I literally, I was just so taken aback during that experience. But yeah and I think we are getting close to that time, where, you know, the World War ll generation is kind of going away. And it was kind of an inspiration for a lot of people, I think.

Allison Jaslow  32:23

Yeah, one of the reasons I'm really passionate about telling the story of our generation too is a little bit for those reasons. And especially like the good news, right? Like, unfortunately, because of advocacy, we have talked a lot about like, you know, PTSD and other wounds of war, etc. And it's been really good to destigmatize all of that for a lot of reasons. Because too many of us have lost buddies to suicide, especially after, you know, coming home or even I have one former soldier who took his life while he was overseas, still. 

But the good news stories, which hopefully, you know, I think we're getting to a point where you can tell more stories. It's like, there's so many veterans of our generation who are entrepreneurs now. And doing incredible things like if we can better tell the story of like, both service background folks who are doing incredible things to sort of shape the country of the future of this country. Like, if that story can get told whether it's in the media, or even in pop culture. You know, I think we've had enough like Navy SEALs movies at this point, you know. Can we have some more realistic ones about? 

Brock Briggs

We've had so many.

Allison Jaslow 

Like, I get that there's an audience for those but like, you know, a lot of our culture is shaped to entertainment, you know. And so to me, it's something I'm passionate about and has been a little bit of a part of my career, but I will continue to kind of like, see if I can make a difference. There's, it's like, how do we shape what people think of us through entertainment? You know and how do we make sure that that story is like a good story. To your point, like I want kids to see movies and want to go serve because it looks like a cool thing to do, a rewarding thing to do. A thing that, you know, shapes a person and leaves a mark on them, even if they didn't do it for their entire career for the rest of their lives, you know, which I think many of us can say. It's, you know, our military experience is very like core to who we are, even if we're no longer serving, right?

Brock Briggs  34:31

Well, I think what needs to be advertised there is not the and maybe it's just too many Navy SEAL movies. But what needs to be advertised is like, hey, the military is a great way to, you know, it's a pitch. It's one of two things. It's like come be a Navy Seal or get money for college, which both of those things are great like they really are. But the reality of what you're gonna walk away with after your service is so much more than both have those things like, you're gonna have a lot of great leadership capability. You're going to know how to interact with and like a whole different variety of people that you've never, that isn't part of like your home demographic, you know.

You're gonna learn a really probably a technical skill of some sort. You're gonna, there's all these other things. And I think that those are the more valuable things to take away from service and not necessarily inspiring people that like, hey, you get to kind of relive your Call of Duty fantasies or whatever, because that's not actually what's happening. I think a majority of the time and I hope, you know, we were talking a little bit before we started recording about where I'm aiming to go with this podcast. 

And I think that, that is a big portion of it is highlighting people that are doing interesting things and using their service as a springboard for that and not to like go into government contracting, which that's great. A lot of people do that. But it sets people up to do a lot of cool things like yourself going into politics. I love talking to veteran entrepreneurs and like small business owners like that stuff is so, so cool. And I think that the military does set people up for that. But I think that that's just much less talked about.

Allison Jaslow  36:23

Yeah, I mean, I think to your point, leadership is like basically what makes them breaks in the business world, like whether you can get the executive level, you know. And the real leadership that you gain at a very early age is, it's hard to match than what you get via the United States military. I mean, they've been doing it so long, they got it down. The other thing I would say, too, is, you know, I had a pretty rocky like tumultuous childhood. So I got the opportunity to build resilience at a young age. 

But I think what it gives other people is an opportunity to build resilience or show you what you're made of, you know, I am. I tell people all the time. The pandemic for me wasn't like a thing because like I deployed twice before, and had to figure out how to like get by without my support network, get by without the conveniences of life, decided kind of like accept the conditions as they were set and like, modify how I operated within those things, you know. And I feel like you could tell what the way people were reacting to the pandemic, it's like oh, my God, people have never had to like go through a tough thing before you know, and like.

Brock Briggs

Right

Allison Jaslow 

And whether it's basic training or however else, you know, sort of you make it into the military. There's a lot of value in that to take into the real world. Because what you learn later in life, you know, that's adversity in a controlled environment. But adversity is gonna come to you whether you like it or not, you know. It came to me at an early age. It's come to me at other points in life and like, the more you know, you have an opportunity to sort of like build the muscle in a way, in a proactive way, before you have to sort of deal with what life throws at you, the better. And I think the military is a really great way to sort of set yourself up for successful sail in that regard.

Brock Briggs  38:16

I like that, putting yourself kind of in the face of adversity because it is a muscle. You do need to kind of be prepared for being unprepared, I guess. And what better way to do that than to kind of get yourself into, out of your comfort zone bubble and kind of at the demands and whims of other people for once, where you're not in control. Kind of I guess, circling back long winded, you're to come back to your original question about like, why I joined or whatever. But it was partially that. I did a full episode where I did kind of like my backstory about why I joined and whatnot, but so I won't go like too deep down the rabbit hole. 

But my life was just kind of headed down a really kind of dark path. And I had a lot of family influence family members that were in the military. And I had always kind of thought that it was something that I was gonna do. And just kind of a brief moment of clarity, I realized I needed to make a big change, like really, really quickly. And I am so thankful I probably wouldn't be here if I wasn't, didn't have that moment of clarity. And despite all of the problems, I think that the military has and some of the issues that I hope that we can talk about and kind of address, I think in large part is a good thing for people.

Allison Jaslow  39:44

And they called a sliding door moments, you know. Do you ever reflect and think like, what if you didn't make that decision?

Brock Briggs  39:52

Oh, I hate even thinking about it. But yeah, it is. I've never heard that analogy though.

Allison Jaslow  40:00

Yeah, it's like these moments in time where like we could have, I mean, it's almost like a fork in the road too. But it's like, we all have them throughout our lives where it's like, you made this like one decision that just like totally put you on a path that you couldn't imagine your life otherwise. And I think it can happen. You can have good sliding door moments, it sounds like you have one of those. I would say that like my decision to go on my path into the military was a good one as well. But like many people I think choose wrong in those decisions and pay for them, you know.  

Brock Briggs  40:34

We've been talking a little bit about ways that the military helped set us up for like the future in a variety of ways. In what ways do you think that the military helped you find success in the political sphere?

Allison Jaslow  40:53

I think not just the military, but definitely the intensity of my deployments, especially my first one I think really helped me. Politics is really intense. It's not for the faint of heart. You know, campaign side of politics or 18 hour days. You know, when I was a chief of staff on Capitol Hill, it was seven days a week. You know, you can't just sort of like have a weekend there, which, as you know, when you're stateside, the military is pretty good at like, you know, giving us four day passes and getting to chill unless you have staff duty on the weekends. 

But you know, the relentlessness of these deployments, I think to my earlier point about adversity, you know, to get it at these different stages, for those of us who deployed, we also had that sort of set of adverse experiences to go through. And I think that made me, it gave me like the toughness and the ability to know that like I could make it through, you know, really intense circumstances and succeed. You know, I don't know in my personality, I mean, maybe I could have done it anyway. 

But I think I was just more well equipped to kind of go into those environments. Just because it is such a pressure cooker and like really relentless. I'm glad I have my lived experience that I got to take into that. You know, to my detriment, I feel like not that I had some bosses who I would have wanted to like, sort of, even if I was filling another role in the office who would have like wanted my opinion as it related to like national security issues, or service members, etc. 

But still, I'm glad that that was something that I brought into it because it actually wasn't very typical of people who were in my sort of like the staff roles in the circles that I was in. I'm very unique in terms of the fact that I was a staffer who had served not just in the military, but who had also deployed. So I'm, you know, to the extent that any of us find ourselves in rooms where like we're the only one which can happen in a lot of different ways. I guess I'm grateful. I don't know that it like set me up for anything. But I'm grateful that I was able to bring my lived experience as not just a veteran but a combat veteran into the world of politics because I think even at the staff level, it was a valuable perspective to have in the mix.

Brock Briggs  43:21

Well, then I think it can be a positive differentiator. You know, you bring a unique perspective. And sometimes that can be good. Sometimes maybe not so much. I am kind of preparation for this interview, I was kind of doing some digging on like how many presidents we had that had served, which is actually more than I thought. 26 I think if I've got my account right, which is like way more than I thought. 

One of the interesting stories that I kind of came across and just kind of because it's local to me here in Virginia. But our newest lieutenant governor, Winsome Sears, she has like her campaign photo is like, and she's a former Marine, I believe. And she's like her campaign photo is her like holding a rifle. Which was like, unbelievably controversial for just, I don't know, all the reasons that you can imagine. 

Allison Jaslow

Yeah

Brock Briggs  

What do you think about that type of I mean, you don't have to get into the politics of it or whatever. But what do you think about that type of positioning when it comes to using your military background as a platform?

Allison Jaslow  44:37

So I'm in the category of people who say like, it's a part of your story, but when you're running as like a war hero, I don't care who you are, unless you like literally have the Medal of Honor like it. Oftentimes, if it's a politician, it's like a bit too much, you know. And I think, I also think that like using that to communicate that you're some sort of superhuman person too, is wrong. You know, I think it's, you know, if I ran for office, it would be a part of my story. 

But I would push back on anybody who told me that like make that all of me, especially because I've done so much afterwards. You know and so to me, the people who are like running as Rambo, if you will. It's just like, it's just a lot. And I think it actually like does a little bit of a disservice to the community too because those political campaigns no different than entertainment, as I mentioned before, shape what people think of service members, you know. And I think that there's some candidates out there doing things that like I really wish weren't shaping what people thought of our community.

Brock Briggs 

Right

Allison Jaslow 

So and you know, I think for some of these folks it can really catch up with them too. Because they really puff themselves up, maybe they get into the office, but many times some of those people who like end up with ethics investigations, you know, in this scandal and that scandal. So to me I think the sweet spot if you're a veteran candidate is like telling it as a part of your story with humility and knowing that like you are somebody who served but even if people wanna call you it, probably not a war hero.

Brock Briggs  46:29

Well and I think that and maybe this kind of is getting at some issues that we were talking about earlier with politicians generally. But you really need to be careful on which, where you build your foundation because if you're gonna really advocate and say, yeah, I'm a veteran and I'm all this stuff, I think that you might give the impression that, you know, you're gonna be going to bat for that population. And like unquestionably so, politicians maybe don't come out gunslinging super hard on some issues because they don't wanna have to backpedal later on like a platform that's built kind of in the campaign stage.

Allison Jaslow  47:12

I'm not sure I have an answer to that question. I mean, I think I've seen. Listen, when it comes to vets running for like at least federal office, I've seen both parties use their knowledge of and experience with guns to advance both pro Second Amendment arguments and why we shouldn't have assault weapons on the streets of the United States of America. And so I think, I don't know, it's all how you use it at least around like the gun question. 

But I've seen it used both ways. And to be honest like that is a particular issue where there's no real gray either, you know. At least in today's day and age, which, you know, we are so polarized that it's hard to operate in the gray these days. So I think if you take a position on that, you're kind of stuck with it however you do it. And like I said, you know, that's their comfort and experience with guns to advance, you know, two very different narratives.

Brock Briggs  48:30

Well, we also live in a day and age where anybody with a decent memory and an internet connection can go back and reference something that you might have mentioned 10 years ago, that might be counter narrative to what you have to say now. And being in that type of spotlight is scary. And I think people should be able to change their minds. I think you absolutely should. And that's where that humility comes in, that you were talking about. 

Allison Jaslow

Yeah

Brock Briggs 

But people are gonna slam you for it, I'm sure of it.

Allison Jaslow  49:00

Yeah, and it's tough, you know, to your point. You know, I think all of that should have permission to kind of like grow and evolve over time, whether that's because we get more information. Maybe just because, you know, in different phases of life, you consider things differently. Your priorities change and that changes your viewpoint on things. I think that that's one of the hardest things about politics, though, is that like for better or worse, all your entire body of work can be used against you. 

You're right, depending on like what you've done in life or how much you put yourself out there. And so, I think the sad part about that is because our politics is so unforgiving. I think that there are a lot of people who are really high quality leaders who shy away from putting their name on the ballot because the process is so unforgiving. Whether it's, you know, a position that you changed over time or like how you misspoke 10 years ago, you know.

Brock Briggs  50:02

I have a growing respect for people that are willing to consistently put their names out there and not be afraid to be wrong. I have all the slack in the world for people that wanna grow into those new opinions and kind of evolve over time because I know that that's something that I am experiencing. And I wouldn't expect that anything different for anybody else. And it's hard, everybody. I know so many people that probably would be high profile if people knew who they were, but are so afraid of being canceled, canceled culture, this and that. And it's sad because I think that there are a lot of prominent voices that are being snuffed by the threat of I don't know, just being blasted in the media, mostly.

Allison Jaslow  50:54

Yeah, I agree. And I also agree that like it makes me admire people that much more who are willing to put themselves out there knowing what's gonna come. 

Brock Briggs

Yeah

Allison Jaslow

And a lot of the stuff is like, things you wouldn't even necessarily anticipate, you know. It's just it's a brutal world, especially out there on the internet these days, you know.

Brock Briggs  51:17

So many embarrassing photos floating out there somewhere of

Allison Jaslow  51:23

Yeah, that's wild.

Brock Briggs  51:24

Yeah, I routinely joke with my close circle of friends. I've got a lot of embarrassing photos of me in colored skinny jeans on the internet floating around that I know are coming to bite me at some point in the future, probably why I can never run for office too. So that'll, unless you're willing to just come out and own it. And like that, that be your platform, you gotta be ready for it. 

I want to kind of get into one more topic, but I've kinda wanna close out the political talk. If I have a few friends that are interested in getting actively involved in politics, and I think that you paint it in a very interesting way that isn't shy about what the realities of the life is like, for working on a campaign, like you said, very long days, etc. How is the best way for people to get involved? Is it just as simple as writing their congressman and saying, hey, I wanna come join your campaign? Or what are the steps that people can be doing to take that path?

Allison Jaslow  52:35

So in what capacity to like, be a staffer to be a volunteer to run books themselves?

Brock Briggs  52:42

Let's talk about all of them. And we don't have to totally go down the rabbit hole on each, but maybe a bit about each.

Allison Jaslow  52:50

Yeah, so if this is like, let's say, if this is like an election season where somebody's feeling restless and like, you know, maybe they have a full time job, but they wanna get involved in some way because they, you know, won't be able to sleep with themselves if they don't. I think like, at least from a volunteer perspective, just reaching out to a campaign nearby and asking if you can help is pretty easy, like a lot of most of them have websites. The nature of a campaign, at least it's the campaign work is that there is always more work than there are people to do it. 

So any free bodies are definitely welcomed. Campaigning might not be everybody's thing. I think, if you wanna, you know, have a relationship with an official office of an elected official, that might look more formal in terms of like actual employment. Whereas, you know, and there's two different ways that can look is one, you know, if you are at least at the federal level, if you are in Washington, DC, you're a policy staffer of some sort. When you're in district office, so like, you know, you're in Norfolk. So if it was a district office down there, look more like casework. So it's staffers and they do take interns in both places as well. So if somebody is exploring like if you have buddies who are getting out and are on the GI Bill and they wanna do this as a part of their journey. 

But in the district offices, it's gonna be caseworkers who are working everything from helping older vets navigate their bureaucracy or like get their vets benefits or maybe even getting people new DD214’s to helping with immigration cases or social security cases and stuff like that. That's the type of work that's traditionally done in the district office. When it comes to running for office, you know, I recommend that's looking at an organization called new politics. They are focused on service minded candidates. Many of their candidates are veteran candidates. 

But they'll give you like workshops and trainings. So if you're like a super novice at all of this, but you wake up one day and you're like, maybe I should run for the state house or for city council or whatever. They can help walk you through the process. And two ways it might actually teach you that like maybe this isn't for you. Because they'll help you with the realities of it. But they're also just a really good resource. And they have an interest, you know, based on their organization of getting as many service minded people into elected office all across the country and at all levels of the ballot. 

I say service minders, but they also they welcome like people who served in America or teaching America or whatnot, pursuing elected office as well because they're sort of like theory of change on our politics is that if there are more servant leaders in our politics, however, you were a servant leader that like the whole system would work better. Was that enough of an answer to your question? 

Brock Briggs 

That works for me.

Allison Jaslow 

Yeah, there's a lot of ways you can participate in the process, both as an average citizen and or as a staff lover, so I could actually answer in a much longer way. But that was my best sort of like snapshot.

Brock Briggs  56:07

Have you ever thought about running?

Allison Jaslow  56:11

It might be something that I would consider. I think the only reason I'm at that place is not because it was something that I thought about before I got into politics. But I've now reached like the level of jobs that I could do with somebody else giving me the opportunity to serve in that way, if that makes sense. And so I think the natural conclusion is if you take it one step further, that's like me having the guts to put myself out there, you know. But like a lot of those things, it's about, you know, timing. And is it the right time? Will it ever be the right time for a lot of reasons. So

Brock Briggs  56:51

I can respect that. I want to get into another issue you've been pretty vocal about if I can say that and one that naturally. So I mean, it applies to you directly. You came out and kind of what it was, I don't wanna say an attack maybe. But like, you were talking about support for women's veterans and obviously, something applicable to you. And you were kind of pointing the finger at the VA. And pointing out the lack of support that women veterans get when it comes to service. How did that come about? Did that come about from firsthand experience? And what kind of resulted from those feelings?

Allison Jaslow  57:44

So a few things. You know, when I was executive director in Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, we made the decision based on the understanding of the larger veteran community that women needed more support in a variety of different ways. And so, because we made that assessment, which is again, like I can speak to my own lived experience in a minute, but like, because there were so many women having so many issues as it related to the VA, and also like it society at large. Like almost every woman has a story about like not being believed to be a veteran, you know. 

Or, you know, going into the VA with their spouse and who didn't serve and having, you know, their male spouse approached to be let known that their appointment, you know, was now ready, or that they could be walked back and being misinterpreted as who the vet was. And those are like just, you know, sort of cultural anecdotes. But you know, I will say like, I'm the kind of person who, when I first got out was walking through the VA, it was mistaken to be like some of the nursing staff instead of a veteran myself. 

So when it comes to like, sort of coming at the VA for change, it's everything from both helping helping everything from like, you know, staff to the average layperson understand that we are a part of the community too. I tell people all the time. When you think of somebody who's a veteran, you don't envision. Like if you close your eyes, you do not envision somebody who looks like me, like I can tell you, we've made a lot of progress. But you're not gonna think of somebody who looks like me. It's just to my earlier point about how culture shapes things. If we had more movies with women veterans stories in them like that would help advance progress on that. 

I'm actually really excited for a movie called Ashley's War that's coming out, hopefully soon. I think it's in production because like that will advance the cause, if you will of like shaping what people view as veterans in our country. But the VA has objectively failed within veterans at points over the last 20 years, I mean, their stories. They've made a lot of progress too. But there are stories about how women veterans were getting fitted with male prosthetics. I mean, our bodies are just built differently. And if we are a nation that wants to invest in best in class support to our veterans and oftentimes, we're telling ourselves that we are like, we're really falling short at points and still in my view, when it comes to women veterans. 

So yeah, I mean, I think we've made progress, but we still have progress to make. But it's truly has been an honor of my lifetime to not only have the responsibility of leading the women veterans campaign IAVA but to still have that as a part of my life's work today. Because in part, I will characterize myself as, I saw Lisa Jaster was on your podcast as well. I don't think she and I are that far apart in personality in the sense that like we're on the tougher end of the spectrum, like, you know, my time in the military like I have no problem earning respect from all of my male counterparts. Like a lot of stuff just rolled over me.

But like coming out and having to hear other women's experiences especially enlisted women, really gave me a sense of responsibility for using both like the strength that I do have and the skill set that I now have at this point in my career, whether that's like, you know, speaking externally. Or my understanding of advocacy to help highlight and illuminate many challenges that other women are having that maybe I didn't have on my own to try and make the situation better for them.

Brock Briggs  1:01:44

I love that. And we do need more of that. It took me a good little bit of time to lock down my first female guests for the show. And I was just like, trying so so hard. And it took me a little bit to get some momentum on finding some good guests and whatever. But the women, yourself included, that I've been able to have on the show have been absolutely fantastic voices for that. I think you point to a lot of really interesting things there that I wanna get into. Your first anecdotes about people going to the mail for like the service part, it's always so interesting. 

And speaking to my process of understanding women's struggles, I guess, that they have in the military and getting out as well. My partner and I, we'll be out, you know, shopping or whatever. And people say, oh, are you guys? Are you in the military or whatever? And I'll say, yeah, she is. And I mean, I'm former or whatever, but she's still in the Navy. And everybody is just like, what? Like and we had an experience like two weeks ago and we were buying a mattress and we're talking with this gentleman. 

And I told him I was like, yeah, I'm former but she’s still in. She's active. And he's still proceeded to just talk to me and about the military conversation and I'm like, don't talk to me, like, she's right here. And I will like come out and openly admit that I was so ignorant of stuff like that. I just didn't get it until I started seeing somebody that was in the military. And it's my few years of seeing that has really opened my eyes to a lot of problems that I probably wouldn't have picked up on otherwise.

Allison Jaslow  1:03:42

Yeah, and you know, it's like, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like the more feminine you look like harder it is to believe that like you're actually serving or did serve or whatever. 

Brock Briggs

Yup

Allison Jaslow 

You know, and then it's like, okay, so to be believed that I like served, am I supposed to like, shave all my hair off? And like, you know, wear like muscle shirts and like have tattoos that you know, show OF 03 to 04 you know or whatnot.

Brock Briggs

Right

Allison Jaslow 

So and that's why, you know, in my advocacy work, I've talked to people it's like you almost have to like choose between your femininity and your veteran status, which we shouldn't make women have to choose. But it's real. And you know, like for me for personal experience, like I am for most of my time when I was in the military, I used to be kind of like built like a softball player. But I've ran a ton on my second deployment. I was confined to a base that time and I just ran a ton. I mean, like a lot of people they get really, you know, like you can't drink so you really just get some shape while you're overseas. 

And so I got like, I got down to like a runner's build, you know, and so I think like, when people learn that I'm a veteran, I oftentimes get like double tapes of people who like can't actually believe it, you know. But to your point, it's like I also enjoy every opportunity to open up people's eyes. In fact, when I moved to North Carolina, I got a license and down here you can put your veteran status on your license. And I didn't know that until right about when she was about to print it off. And I said, oh, hey, I didn't realize you can put veteran status on here. I was like, I'm a veteran. And the woman had to like apologize and say, you know, what? I asked every dude if they're a veteran because, you know, they go through all the list of questions when you're like

Brock Briggs

Yeah

Allison Jaslow 

Getting a license. And she's like, I'm sorry that I didn't even think to ask you, you know, but it's like, that's one mind change. And one person who's now thinking a little bit more about women veterans than they were before, you know, so.

Brock Briggs  1:05:34

Right. Well, and it's those types of experiences too where I can't say the same for the guy that was selling us the mattress. But for her, that was probably a very impactful experience. And she will remember it next time. And I guarantee you were especially if to the point where she felt bad enough to apologize. That's very cool. And like you said, it just takes, you know, a couple 100 million of those and will be squared, like that's all we got to do.

Allison Jaslow  1:06:06

Well, yeah, you know, from an advocacy perspective, civilian women have been very helpful and moving the needle, you know, because of, because when they like, learn about things that are wrong, or like these cultural stories and whatnot. It's almost like they take a chip on their shoulder for us because they also do see how we talk about that's in our country, you know. And so the women civilians, so I think, see how we talk about our vets, and maybe to themselves also say like, that person has way more guts than I could ever have. Like we need to fight for them. It's been really helpful from an advocacy perspective both in generating just like a general coalition of support, but especially like when women civilian politicians have been very, very helpful in moving the needle.

Brock Briggs  1:06:49

To kind of pick up on something else that you were just talking about. Having to choose between femininity, I have always struggled with that word, femininity, and like the identity as like a military member, can you kind of unpack that? Because that's something that Lisa also talked about. She talked a little bit about it in the whole Ranger setting like, it's like, you've got these like really kind of like hard, rugged people. And then it's like, you know, that's what you associate with the visual part of it. And then you've got somebody who maybe doesn't fit that mold. Can you talk about, was there a particular moment in time that stood out to you where you experienced that or any other thoughts that you have about it?

Allison Jaslow  1:07:43

So I think it's maybe a little more of a dance now that I'm out. Like, I think when I was in, I was the kind of person who like wanted to fit in and adapt. Which doesn't mean I overcorrected in the other direction, but it's not like I was trying to be a girly girl, let's just say back then. I'm still not now. I just think it's just a shame that we can't be both like that. I can't be a woman and also tougher shit, you know. And I feel the same way about Lisa like, why can't she be both? Why can't she be tough enough, strong enough to, you know, graduate Ranger School but also be able to like be a girl when she's not in her. You know, I think she's a reservist now, right? Like, not drilling and whatnot, you know.

Brock Briggs

Right

Allison Jaslow 

Can she still be that person too? I just think it's a shame that it feels like society, whether that's, you know, the society within the military or society at large. It's a shame that it feels like you have to make a choice. Again, I think we might evolve to a place where it'll feel less of that way. But it still, it still does a little bit. And hey, listen, you're in, you know, what people said about, you know, women who were like, too girly, or they came off in certain ways like stuff is said about women across the spectrum, you know, and so it can be tough. Like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Brock Briggs  1:09:16

I know it can be tough, but I wouldn't even venture to say that I have any grasp on what that actually means. I get to live a lot of that secondhand from my partner because she falls into that category of what you're describing. Kind of has that look that everybody's like, what? Like I could never picture you in that. But the reality is, she's a badass GM in the Navy and she can shoot better than most people I know. And it's a cool thing to see and see those experiences like what you were talking about where people's kind of minds can be changed, but it certainly doesn't happen overnight.

Allison Jaslow  1:10:01

Yeah and unfortunately and I think in the military itself too, like we're not like it would be better if the military was like more embracing of like, you know, tough women who could also be women. But I'm not sure that like the culture within the military is there yet. I've been out for a long time. And I think, in many ways that shapes sort of like perceptions outside of the military as well. Because it can be really tough. I mean, my eyes were open in veterans advocacy. You know, I was not only in the army but an officer, but like having to understand a little more about the experiences of enlisted women, which I was really close to my soldiers. 

But there's just only so much you can know. But especially women Marines, I mean, the stuff that's said about them openly with men and women who served, you know. If you're either a lesbian, a bitch or whore like that's a tough like which one do you pick? That's like, if there's three categories that all of your women colleagues are gonna get, you know, bucketed into. And I'm sure that's not everybody in the Marines, but there's enough to have, you know, a number of women saying that they have the same experience and experience the same thing. And so, I don't know where you decide to categorize yourself because they all seem like crap choices to me.

Brock Briggs  1:11:23

Those aren't good. Well and I think that from a male's perspective, something that I saw from my senior female leaders that, you know, were enlisting very, very, I mean, it's a long time ago now. But you know, they're coming in at times when there were just like such a small population of women in the military in general. And like some of the senior enlisted and senior officers that I reported to during my time were just like so freakin' rugged. And just like literally would go to the mats with like any dude over anything and just were freakin' complete Bulldogs. 

Allison Jaslow

Yeah

Brock Briggs

And I think that that's where a lot of that comes from. And that that's just because it's like a survival instinct, almost like, they won't take you seriously, or they wouldn't have back then, if you weren't like up in their face. And I had another great interview with Kate Germano who talked about the same thing, senior officers that were male wouldn't take her seriously. Because, you know, you had to like really be aggressive. And maybe a little bit of that was the Marine thing. But I think it's gonna take some time, but I hope that we're moving in that direction.

Allison Jaslow  1:12:48

I think we are. And to your point, you know, I don't think that the military. Well, maybe it will, but it probably won't be 50/50, like ever. But I think we're in an interesting time where there's enough of a saturation of women serving and who have served, just generally. And also making it up the leadership ranks that like, I think we have increasingly more of a collective ability to create change in partnership with like male allies, right? So if you've got enough, you know, women who are serving or who have served and enough of like, the good guys around us to help create change, like I think we're closely getting to a tipping point of some real great progress, I think. 

But it's taken a lot of hard work and advocacy of, you know, the Kate Germanos of the world, you know, talk about somebody who put herself out there, you know. I don't think, it's great what she's done through her advocacy and writing her book, but I know I'm not living where she is. But I'm sure she's taken a lot of flack in that process and had many people say not so nice things about her. But it takes people who have the guts to put themselves out there and have these conversations and start these conversations for us to even get anywhere though too, you know.

Brock Briggs  1:14:13

And this is just to kind of pull us full circle here. I routinely get into political discussions with people like my family members, specifically but one of the things that I kind of routinely come back to about, one of the greatest things that's so awesome about this country is that we do have the ability to put people in power at like, of our choosing, for the most part if you wanna. Yeah, we can at least agree on that. But and we have these cycles of political power presidential and kind of below. 

But the reality is, we still need time to change things and we need to cycle people out. And it takes generations of time and improved thinking and new social standards and new cultural standards to kind of get people to think better and bigger. And something like I was saying applies to the political sphere but also in terms of this. We're fighting a lot of different fights in terms of gender, race, all of those. But I think generally, we're heading in the right direction.

Allison Jaslow  1:15:36

I think, listen, we're living through a complicated time that I think won't even make sense to us until we have it fully in the rearview. But generally, I remain optimistic because I think this is how progress happens. You know, like just think about like progress in your like as a human yourself, right? Like, it's hard and complicated. Like, if you're getting into shape, you know, it's hard and you have to like reckon with yourself. And sometimes it's like fits and starts before you like, really get those 25 pounds off or whatnot, you know. And I feel like, what we're going through right now is having, you know, both hard discussions and looking inward as a nation and asking ourselves who we are and what we wanna be. 

But I think that that's something that's happened to your point, generationally, it's cyclical. And that's how we continue to move, like in the right direction towards our ideal if you can accept that, like, we're imperfect, but we always know where we wanna be aiming towards. I think we just generationally, and this is one of the things that I hope a, again, like makes me hopeful. And that I hope, also means that like our country will still be, you know, still have its place in the world is I think, like, we by nature continue to raise the bar for ourselves, you know. And so that's, it's great. 

And to raise the bar, like you, you first have to decide that like things aren't good enough, right? And then everybody debates, whether they are or they aren't, or whatever, you know. And you figure out how do we wanna improve and what ways we wanna improve and then you go to the discomfort of changing, but then we're all better for it, you know. So anyway, that's what gives me hope in terms of like our country. 

And I think to your point, there is the social change that happens sort of within each one of us, but also in how we choose to pick our leaders and elevate our leaders. So my hope is in the next 20 years, you know, what feels very uncomfortable and hard right now will have put us in a really healthy place. So I think it just, it can be hard to believe that when you're in it.

Brock Briggs  1:17:50

It really can. Well and you spend any amount of time talking to somebody that's 20 or 30 years older than you that's kind of set in their ways and whatever. It's kind of just like, what do you mean? Like and I know what's gonna come full circle. I know that that's gonna be me, and what do you kids believe in these days and all this stuff? But how do you think that we keep an open mind to change over a long period of time?

Allison Jaslow  1:18:26

Let's say a couple of things. One thing I'd say I had a thought of when you're just mentioning that is what you should remember is that people who are a generation older than us, and that even a generation older than them are much better at showing up to vote than people who are my age or your age or just graduating from college or just getting off of their first enlistment in the military. And so, you know, big picture, I think some of the reasons why the younger generations can get frustrated is because like we're not showing up in the numbers that we need to to offset those older folks who are set in their ways and want things to stay just as they are and not be disruptive. 

I don't know. I don't wanna think that I will be open to sort of change for most of my life, but I think has to be like a part of your personal ethos. And I think for many humans, people like to just be comfortable and change by its nature isn't. And so I think it's about like whether you, like I think I've done a good job of this like kind of in my career is like I am constantly putting myself out of my comfort zone. You know, I've collected zip codes throughout my career. I've lived a lot of different places in the country. I continue to like to push myself to learn and grow in new ways. But I think it has to almost be a discipline. 

And I think not a lot of people are built like me candidly. I think many people will get to, maybe they do it for part of their lives and then they like wanna chill. But a lot of people would rather stay comfortable. And I think comfortable is not only just like, you know where you're at, but also in your worldview. Like some people, I think the reason they don't wanna have column difficult conversations about like social issues or even political conversations, because they would rather not have their views challenged at all. Because it is more comfortable and safer. And it allows them to kind of like live the life that they wanna live. It's not, I wanna be different in that way. 

But I think the average person kind of like wants to be that way. So one of the reasons I'm really passionate about national service, in terms of it being an expectation for every young American is that is to try and get at that a little bit for the health of our country. So everybody doesn't need to serve how you and I serve. But like, if more young people felt like it was their responsibility or that they should be doing or that it's hit to do a service here, whether it's in a Conservation Corps somewhere, a city or somewhere, Teach For America after college, that by doing that and having that shared experience or moving to a place of the country, that's totally different than where you're at. And having your views and your perspective challenge, I think we would have a much healthier nation these days because we are so entrenched in our own. Some people call it tribes, but it's just everybody's sort of like in their corners, you know.

Brock Briggs  1:21:29

I think that that's really what it takes is immersion in a way of life that isn't your own. I was very grateful to spend a few months abroad setting for school and it was interrupted by COVID, which is a bummer. But I got to spend a few months in Europe. And it's table stakes that everybody in college does a study abroad, like that's everybody does it. Like you may not go to the US, but you will go to another country typically and study for six months to a year. 

And it's expected that you do that in and it's for exactly that. And I think that we have a lot of the great, we have a great foundation for, you know, what our country has been built on. But I think that that is one key element that is missing, that would kind of stimulate that. I don't know, openness to change and looking for other ways of thinking.

Allison Jaslow  1:22:30

Well, it’s ironic that we're better at doing it for the benefits of like studying abroad than we are at like traveling to different parts of our own country, you know. Especially because some people, you know, are very high brow kind of right off certain parts of the country. You know, we discussed before sort of the ancillary benefits of being in the military. I view that as one of the things that I think gifted me, you know. You have to you know, a I was stationed not just, you know, in Iraq during war but in Colorado Springs, Colorado. So it was like a different part of the country that I got to go now. I went to Officer Basic Course up the road from Europe to Fort Lee, in Virginia, you know. So that was another opportunity to live and visit another place. You know, maybe that's where I got my taste and wanting to like, collect zip codes after the military too. 

But, we also had to get to know people who weren't like us throughout that experience, you know. The military draws from all parts of the country. And so we have a familiarity with our fellow Americans that many other of our fellow citizens just don't have, in a way that I think, I mean, hey, maybe that's another consequence of the military civilian divide that if more people were serving more people would know people not like them, you know. 

Brock Briggs  

Yeah

Allison Jaslow 

Or understand that it's possible for a group of people who aren't like each other, but who are united for a common purpose and reason that which is the United States of America can like get along and like do big things.

Brock Briggs  1:24:09

I think that we have and can continue to do big things. But I think if there's one like message, it could probably sum up from this conversation, it would probably be to kind of continue to challenge that status quo we talked about and kind of push up that bar and be okay with that kind of uncomfortability that comes with embracing new ideas and traditions that aren't where we came from, or what we currently believe.

Allison Jaslow  1:24:38

Yeah, I mean, it's my hope, you know, in this way and in other ways that if like, if there are enough of our generation of like I said, the good guys but like making it into real positions of power across the country, which looks a lot of different ways, right? Like corporate America, that the tone that they're able to set at the top of these institutions. 

Well really, even if like people inside the organizations are all vets, but that if they can bring an ethos and an outlook that is just fundamentally different than like the generation before us, to all sorts of corners of the country because we're now finally getting into a place where we can get into those positions, that'll be good for the country too. 

So I'm optimistic that, you know, veteran leaders and all sectors of society can really help us move the ball forward in a way that will be really just, I don't know, good for our country and a lot better than where we feel we're at right now. Because I don't think we have those leaders quite yet. Or at least in the places where they can make the biggest difference quite yet. But I'm hopeful that in time that'll happen as well.

Brock Briggs  1:25:48

I'm hopeful and confident that it will happen as well. Allison, thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your knowledge and wisdom. This has really been great and awesome insight into the political sphere. Where can people go to find out more about you and or support you, any social media or anything you'd like to plug this on people?

Allison Jaslow  1:26:10

Sure. My Twitter is @jaslow. And you can read more about me and my background to this point. I think I'm just getting started but at www.allisonjaslow.com. 

Brock Briggs  1:26:31

Awesome! Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Allison Jaslow  1:26:34

Thanks for having me.