28. Attacking Barriers to Entry in Higher Education with Tom Sietsema

Brock Briggs 0:00  

Hello and welcome to the Scuttlebutt podcast. Today, I'm speaking with Tom Sietsema. Tom is a former Marine who took an early interest in Finance in particular Investment Banking and M&A. After his time in, Tom got into Columbia, which set the foundation for his early success in the investment banking space. After pursuing finance in school myself, I was amazed hearing Tom's story because it's really a true measure of what's possible after your time in. Finance is an incredibly difficult industry with extremely high barriers to entry. 

We get to talk about some of those barriers in this conversation and how best to tackle them from a former enlisted perspective. Tom has since moved on to be the COO at Newbury Franklin Home Services, which is acquiring and building a best in class home services businesses. We talk about how an investment banking background usually leads to the entrepreneurship through acquisition space or ETA. We also talk about the intersection of your lifestyle and workplace. Most people don't think about how they wanna live before considering where they wanna work, and they really should be. I had a lot of fun with this conversation. 

Tom is incredibly intelligent and says he's never done a podcast before, but it's easy to tell the confidence in his responses from his clarity of thought and pointed questions and answers. If you'd liked this episode and enjoy the content on entrepreneurship through acquisition, you'll probably enjoy a few of the older episodes we've done, episode 8 with Nate Lanahan and episode 23 with Rich Jordan. Both are great examples of veterans leveraging their skills and networks to build businesses. For now, please enjoy this conversation with Tom Sietsema.

Brock Briggs  2:11  

Tom, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I'm really excited for this conversation. I know that I say that about a lot, probably everyone. But each one really truly is exciting. You had reached out to me over Twitter after hearing me talk on the acquisitions anonymous podcast. So we have that in common, the ETA or entrepreneurship through acquisition theme in common. I'd love to hear a little bit from you about how you got into the ETA space. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, definitely. And happy to be on Brock, really excited for the conversation today. So I appreciate you having me on. And I guess, probably the best place to start with this, you know, is where I was prior to my current role, which was a series of jobs that I had coming out of school. So I transitioned around 2012, went to school in New York City, came out of that, ended up in investment banking for a couple of years, parlayed that into another role. And I guess this would have been probably around, I wanna say 2018, where I sort of started to look around and contemplated going to business school, looking at what opportunities were in front of me. 

And I had a friend of mine who had been working in private equity for a while and had left to go do a roll up strategy. And he sort of introduced me to the idea of search funds and the idea of somebody essentially raising money, going out finding a business to buy and then running that for some period of time. And so I started to kind of dip my toe in the water a little bit, probably around 2017-2018. And was really in a state of gathering information, right? And kind of learning what search funds were. I think ultimately at that point in time, I sort of looked at what the typical background was for a search funder. 

And I think more often than not, you find that their MBAs coming out of a two year program. And just based on where I was at the time, I sort of decided that business school probably wasn't the right move for me at that point. Put it on the back burner for a bit, continue to work in the role that I'd been in which was combination of corporate development and direct investing. COVID hit, I came back to the US. I'd been in Bermuda for that time, working for a reinsurance company and spent the next you know, probably most of the pandemic sort of exploring what that might really look like, if I was gonna either raise money on my own or explore some other type of ETA vehicle and ultimately got introduced to the team at Newbury, Franklin. Didn't immediately join one of the platforms at that point in time. 

But that was kind of when I'd sort of made the decision in my mind that this was probably the path that I was gonna ultimately pursue. 

Brock Briggs

I don't think that there's any shortage of stories out there that really just ring all the bells for veterans, you know. It's like, Hey, you get to kind of go be your own boss, at least that's one of the big things that always are like, has kind of drawn me to this space is like, oh, I can kind of be responsible for everything for once, you know, and you're no longer taking orders. And you get to kind of be on the other side of that and be responsible, rather than just kind of showing up and doing that. How did you get interested in investment banking to begin with? I know you're a former Marine. You said you joined the Reserves, but spend a majority of the time on active duty. It sounds like that you know a lot of people that are like, oh, you know, I really just wanna go be an investment banker. Like it's kind of a

Tom Sietsema

Yes

Brock Briggs

That one title that you hear about in the movies, that sounds really crazy and fun, but may not may not actually be. 

Tom Sietsema

Right. Yeah and for probably for most people, the first few times that they mentioned it, they probably don't even really know what that means. 

Brock Briggs

Right

Tom Sietsema

So and that was the case for me too, by the way. So I guess it's probably worth, you know, I think I listened to a couple of the other guests that you've had on, and I'm definitely not unique in that. You know, prior to my time in the service, I was somewhat of a wayward youth and not really sure what I wanted to do. After high school, I sort of looked around and I had some combination of, you know, influence from my family, any sort of lack of real direction or any kind of idea of what I wanted to be.

And so I joined the Marine Corps in 2009, ultimately ended up choosing the Marine Corps, largely because of family ties. My grandfather was a World War ll Marine. My father happened to be an officer in the army. But for whatever reason, you know, being in the Marine Corps resonated with me at that point in my life. And so, I initially went in and the conversation that I had with recruiters was, you know I think they quickly sold me on this sort of Green to Gold path where, you know, you're gonna come enlisted. And you know, you'll start out in the reserves, that will give you some time to go get your degree and then you'll transfer over to the officer side, right? 

And I have no sense of how many people they, you know, sort of sell on that agenda or that path. I'm sure it's a number that's far greater than the people that actually ended up doing it. But that's essentially what I did. And that's how I came into the Marine Corps. And over the course of the next four years, what ultimately happened is that, you know, you sort of get pulled in different directions, and you take, you go to different schools, and the plan to sort of go to school while you're in, at least for me, fell by the wayside. 

So I think for me, you know, I ultimately, you know, spent a good chunk of time in the Bolling Anacostia base working for the civil affairs group down there. That was my reserve unit, ended up in Afghanistan in 2011. And what really happened for me is that I fell under some really great leadership, and specifically, the officers that I worked for. After I'd spent a significant amount of time with them and developed a really good relationship with them, they said, you should really think about going back to school, right? And maybe, you know, we'd like to help you do that. And in this context, it was really about doing that and getting out of the Marine Corps and maybe doing something else as well, which I was fortunate in. 

You know, I don't think everyone's leadership is always interested in having conversations with people that what they're gonna do when they get out. And interestingly enough, for me, the decision to leave start sort of started with that and with those conversations. And so I didn't really have a sense at that point, what it was to work in investment banking. I had started to hone in on, you know, business finance, more generally. And for me, it was really a slow process of, you know, in the period where I transitioned out, started to go to school full time, really educating myself on what that meant. 

And, you know, over the course of my time, it's on campus, really, just through exposure to more traditional students to other veterans that had gone through. What you inevitably end up doing is sort of, if you want to pursue something that has, you know, high barriers to entry, lots of follow on opportunities and lots of upward mobility. It really narrows down the path to probably two or three broad categories and that's kind of how I started to dive into specifically investment banking, just based on how I wanted to spend my time and where I saw myself in the next few years. 

Brock Briggs

That's cool that you had some leadership that took the time to kind of foster that, you know, obviously saw something in you and wanted to kind of fan that flame. I think that that's something that's talked about a lot. And there's the whole push to like, oh, you know, you need to be going to school or doing things on your extra time to kind of pursue your interests outside. But they are kind of conflicted, where they don't want you to get out. And, you know, but they also don't want your school to be interrupting whatever your daily requirements or weekly or, you know, it's tough to be going to school while you're in Afghanistan. 

Tom Sietsema

Yep. Yeah. And it's one of those things where I think this is where we're actually being in the reserves is, it's almost advantageous, right? Because you're in a unit that, you know, unlike being in the fleet, even your officers or people that have full time jobs, they, you know, are typically, you know, in some sort of role, that's, you know. If it doesn't require a graduate degree that they're pursuing something like that they're getting into law, or they're going to business school. And so I think their orientation is probably a little bit different, right? And, you know, I think if I'd had those conversations or tried to have those conversations with, you know, active duty Marines or active duty officers, that would have been in a leadership role over me. I'm not sure they would have gone quite that way.

Brock Briggs  11:32  

Oh, I don't wanna speak for your, any potential leadership in the Marine Corps, but I can assure you that it probably wouldn't. Because, you know, there, and maybe that's, I'm speaking from some of my experience there, where it's like, I've got leaders that are like, you know, don't, you know, don't get out. Like you do great in the Navy and like, all this stuff. And I'm like, “Well, if I would do good in the Navy, I'd probably do good like in my regular civilian life, too, right?” Well, you know, maybe not that good. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I know, it's probably an often spoken about topic. You know, as you engage with guests, but, you know, the obvious issue there is you're sort of looking at people who haven't done the thing that you're about to do, and hoping that they have meaningful advice and beyond that, that they're advocating for your best interests, which is probably rare, right? To say the least. So 

Brock Briggs

Oh, big time. Well, and I think that that's gonna be something that we wanna talk about a little bit is like the really chasing down the people that actually have done, not just have talked about it. But have actually done what you're trying to do and using their past and like experiences kind of a guideline for how things get done. I'm curious how you got, or how you ended up at Columbia? Are you from New York? Was your interest in business driving you to go there? Or did you just so happen to end up at like one of the top schools in the country for like business, finance, M&A, etc? 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, so I'll upset a number of other Columbia veterans, who may be listening by just revealing that Columbia has strongly pursued veterans as a general recruiting matter. And so it's and by the way, if anybody's out there is interested in going to a top school, I would probably start there because it's a well worn path. And there's just a huge veteran population. So one, I think, you know, the dirty little secret is you probably have a little bit of a leg up as a veteran applying to Columbia. Just given that they were sort of the first to move on veteran recruiting. Now, it's actually, you know, you hear a lot about enlisted veterans specifically, and I'm talking about obviously, undergraduate programs here. 

But you hear a lot about veterans getting into, you know, Princeton or Harvard undergrad, and even just a few years ago, that really wasn't the case, right? Like Princeton had a policy about not accepting transfers. And so it just wasn't really an area that many of these sort of top Ivy schools were focused on. And for Columbia, that's been the case for I mean, gosh, I think, you know, at least 15 years now, where they've had like a pretty robust, you know, group of enlisted veterans going there. And I think on the more practical side of things, you know, I knew that I wanted to do something in high finance. 

And it was just obvious to me that the best place to do that would be in the middle of Manhattan. And that remains true today, right? I mean, if you're gonna pursue something that is an industry that's really built around places like New York, London, you know, these major metropolitan areas then just from the perspective of being around people that are in the industry that you wanna get into, there's really no better place to be. 

Brock Briggs

Why do you think that there was that disparity? We don't have to like, totally get too far into the weeds on this one. But why do you think that there was that disparity with schools and who they were targeting in terms of recruiting efforts? And specifically veterans? And why was Columbia so far ahead of the curve with bringing veterans to the school? 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah. So, you know, part of the answer here is that they actually have a program that's dedicated, very specifically to non-traditional students, that goes back, honestly, decades. And so I think that's really the key there, right? As they were sort of tuned into that and made that part of their ethos. You know, some, I guess, yeah. I mean, I guess it would have been 56 years ago, I'm not sure somebody can call me out on that. But they've had that program for some time. 

And so I think, you know, as you look at what's transpired in the last 20 years, and you've got a lot of military that was coming out of, you know, a series of conflicts and looking to transition back into the civilian sector. My guess is you probably have a larger number of enlisted veterans and officers going into graduate programs, pursuing these paths than you did even 30 years ago. I mean, I don't really have the data to support that. But anecdotally, it seems to be the case, right? Where it's almost a given that you'll do something like that coming out of your active duty time.

Brock Briggs  16:33  

I would be really curious to see the data that kind of talks about what you're talking about. I saw somebody post something on Twitter the other day, and it got me thinking about what the amount of usage of the GI Bill is and where that's being spent at. Because, you know, one, it's like sad to hear like when people aren't using the benefits that they're given. And you know, it's like, literally a blank check to kind of just about go to any school that you want to, that usually money is the barrier, not the other way. So that's kind of a bummer to hear about that. 

But I think it would suggest and support everything that you're saying in terms of just higher education and becoming more competitive when it comes to the schooling aspect. One last question on the Columbia stuff. What did that look like in terms of support for veterans or these like “non traditional students”? You said that the population of veterans was very high at Columbia. What additional resources or support? Or was it just a matter of like being around other similar like minded people that made that experience positive? 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, so I think it's an interesting question, because one of the things that's unique about Colombia and their program is that, you know, you've got this high density of, you know, veteran population that you can relate to, you know, sort of coming out. And then you've also got access to because obviously, you're taking the same classes, as you know, more traditional Columbia students are, and I think you know it's a unique intersection of an area that you're really familiar with and a group of people that you know really well. 

And you know, I think there's a lot of, you know, sort of structured resources and programs that are available, just given the number of veterans that they have there and the resources that they have dedicated to that. But what I actually found is that, you know, what's really valuable from a veteran perspective on a campus like that is having the, you know, having the camaraderie, having the network and being able to access other people that are, you know, that are leaving the military and going to school. 

But in terms of what really, I think, pushes people forward and allows them to grow and explore, you know, whatever the next opportunity is for them, it’s actually being around the more traditional students who they just have a different experience overall. They come into school with a different, very different frame than we do. They have a completely different network and an approach to things. And, you know, I actually found that the most valuable resource I had on campus was access to people who were, who are going to Columbia College, and, you know, had been thinking about investment banking since their first year in high school. 

Or you know, had a family member that worked somewhere and then had kind of explained to them like what the path looks like and how you get there. Because I think even today, you know, the resources for veterans are so robust around, like resume writing, right? Or like how to present yourself and how to dress for an interview. And it's really those sort of unwritten rules that we don't really have a great grasp of and great institutional knowledge around in terms of the community. And so it's actually, it's probably that mix that I think is what makes the experience really unique and provides the opportunity for you to explore whatever you want coming out of it.

Brock Briggs  20:10  

I had the exact same experience. During my time at school, I kind of had the grand illusion of like wanting to go work on Wall Street and like get this Finance degree and go do all these big things. And but that was also coupled with something that really held me back. And that coming from the veteran perspective, I think that itself wasn't a bad thing. But my mentality because of that, like I showed up to school, and was like, I'm so far behind all these other people. Like I don't give a shit about what anybody else has to say or do. 

And I'm just gonna, like, bury my head in coursework and just like get done as fast as possible. And I did. I got done very, very quickly. But by the time that I like, raised my head above water, my senior year and kind of like, was looking at internships. And I joined the finance Club, which I didn't even know existed. Like, having these conversations with these traditional students, like you said, that have been plugged in and like, just, they're hungry for those types of like investment banking internships or Goldman or whoever. They are much more familiar with, like the internship cycles and things like that, that I just had no idea about. 

I was like, “Ah, I'm not gonna worry about like applying to this and this, like coming up on graduating. And they're like, oh, you know, they're filling roles that we interviewed for a year ago. And I was like, “Oh, shit, like, that's, I didn't know that.” And my lack of being plugged in with those people was kind of detrimental in that way. But it sounds like that's kind of may have been a good thing for you. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And it's funny that you say that, because I always, you know, one of the things I look back on is I think that the situation you just described as something that impacts probably almost everybody who makes that jump. And in this case, I mean, more specifically, from the enlisted side to an undergraduate program because we can talk about graduate programs and how that's fundamentally different, too. 

But, you know, you sort of one of the things that I've really been bothered by looking back is just, you know, it's clear to me that somewhere along the way, people internalize this idea that your job is to kinda get there, right? So I even had this to a certain extent where I got into Columbia, and there's sort of a tendency for you to go, okay, well, I just got into this like really great school. And so obviously, I need to work hard and perform well academically. 

But then, you know, I don't wanna say like it'll fall in my lap or that, you know, some door will be open for me. But there is a little bit of that where people think you're gonna graduate and you're gonna step through a door and walk down the hall and there's just gonna be a job fair there. And people lined up to hire you. And I can tell you, I don't know if it's the same for you and where you attended school. But I know a surprising number of veterans who left a place like Colombia with either unemployed or severely underemployed. So

Brock Briggs

Yeah, that sounds about right. And it's really sad. It's kind of a bummer. And I'm glad that at least for me, it wasn't like detrimental to the point where I didn't have a plan. But I felt blindsided like big time. And had I just been more focused on like, getting, it sounds kind of silly and stupid, but like getting the college experience of like getting out there and spending time with those traditional students like you're saying. To me, when I showed up, I was like, I have no interest in talking to any of these people. Like all of these kids are like five years younger than me. I've lived a ton of life. And it was very arrogant to think that I couldn't get anything from them.

Tom Sietsema

Right, yeah. I always tell people it's, you know, the only thing that happens when you enter into an institution that has high barriers of entry, whether it's getting into a great school, or you know, becoming a consultant or getting, you know, getting a job as an investment banking analyst, or whatever it might be, really all you get is an opportunity to continue competing with high caliber people. That's really what it is. 

And so the extent to which you seize upon that and act on it, it just has a huge effect on where you end up. And, you know, I hope that anybody who's thinking about going to school that that they'll just take that with them and think about, you know. Yeah, it's great if I can get into a school and you know, it's even better if I have an idea of what I wanna study and where I wanna work. But really like, the story starts there. That's not really the end.

Brock Briggs  25:07  

What was your experience, like, you know, you obviously had some notion of what the requirements were to get into kind of an upper tier finance job because of like going to Colombia. A little bit, just kind of my experience since graduating, I kind of, again, a little bit of like, ignorance about what the field looks like. I was like, oh, I'll just get my finance degree, knock it out. And you know, just start applying to some of these, you know, finance jobs in like New York City and whatever. And it's like, oh, no, it doesn't work like that, like, 

Tom Sietsema

Right

Brock Briggs

You know, unless you know somebody that works somewhere, and they can get you an interview, you're not even coming in the door, unless you went to a top seven school, and or, like, have an MBA and you know, again, from a top tier school. And I really underestimated what, how real that was. It's intangible, but it's very real. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

Did you feel an experience that when you were at Columbia? And how did that kind of influence your decisions after kind of coming up to and actually after graduating? 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, so I think, you know, it was definitely, you know, I think one of the things that distinguished my experience probably from others is that I sort of showed up maniacal about trying to break into some of these roles. And, you know, early on, it wasn't, you know, I'll be totally honest, it's not like I landed on campus. And I knew the distinction between, you know, an investment banking analyst, an equity research analyst, or associate and any of the other roles that you might find within what we call an investment bank. 

But what I found was that, you know, I sort of got there, was really, really hungry to get something, you know, to start to sink my teeth into something. And what that allowed me to do, was really to start to pursue people that had done that before, right? And so my experience was, you know, largely around. I think the way it really started is I started on campus, talking to fellow students from the college. And then I also started reaching out to veterans who had already transitioned and started that process of kind of reverse engineering how they had gotten there. 

And it's one of those things where maybe it's unique to consulting and investment banking are the sort of these high tier, you know, high barrier of entry roles coming out of an undergraduate program. But I would say, you know, that's probably the critical piece is just figuring out who's been there, who's done it, and how did they get there, right? I mean, even if you wanted to be a firefighter, you could probably start on some path to doing that for years before the moment at which you're gonna do it. And it's just something that seems absent from the approach that a lot of people take. 

Brock Briggs

What were those people telling you that you should be doing? Like, what was your kind of hungry and talking to these people and asking them kind of what your next steps were? What were those next steps to kind of pursue and keep going down that path? 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, the answer, at the time, felt really unsatisfactory. And it'll probably sound that way to people listening, but it was really just network, right? And you'll hear people beat this drum constantly. And that, when people say that, and I'm sure they do it across industries, right? You'll hear this a lot no matter what, network, network, network with people. But in the path that I chose, that was by far the most important advice that I could get. And what we mean by that, by the way, it could be as something as simple as getting coffee with somebody. 

And what I didn't understand was that when people told you to do that, basically, what they were telling you to do was great, you came and had a cup of coffee with me because I was a Marine officer. I work in investment banking. Now I'm gonna introduce you to one more person at the bank who works in this other group, right? And then it's a series of conversations that you have. And you know, it's not anything, you know. I think sometimes, you know, you'll hear about networking events. 

And there are these sort of more structured events that happen either on or off campus. You show up in a suit. You get a little name tag. You're in these very uncomfortable, awkward conversations with people. And to me, that's not really, you know, that's not how I thought about networking. It's not how I think about it today. What I think of it today or how I would describe it to people today is you're just building a series of relationships. You're building a little bit of rapport with one person who can introduce you to one more person and what ends up happening with that is that essentially when you go to put your name in the hat, right? Or you apply for some of these jobs, now you have an internal advocate, right? 

And you don't have to show up and dazzle these people. All you have to do is have a cup of coffee with somebody, have a normal conversation with them, show them that you're genuinely interested in what they do. And what ends up happening is you apply for the role. And you're able to move forward to, you know, let's say, an initial round of interviews, right? And that's the only thing that's really required of you. And it seems almost too easy or simple. But the difference between knowing that and not as the difference between pursuing some of these opportunities, and what you find yourself with is, you know, a series of internal advocates sort of spread out across this network within the industry that you wanna be in. 

And by the way, down the road, let's say you're 5 or 10 years into this job, whatever it may be. Those are the same people who, when you want to lateral somewhere, when you wanna move to another city, you're able to reach out to. You're able to leverage them and say, hey, you know, I've done this great thing for the last couple of years, you know, firm XYZ. You know, I'm looking to get to Houston. Do you know anybody down there? And it just sort of builds on itself, and you almost get this kind of like flywheel effect, you know, within your network. That's really amazing. But in the beginning, it almost feels, it seems like silly, right? And it's hard to understand that something like that could translate into dictating ultimately, your career and where you spend your time. 

Brock Briggs

As a victim of several very terrible networking events like I can tell you that there is no organic networking happening at those. And it's 100%, all those like one on one kind of things where you like just offer to buy somebody coffee. And or you know, I think that you started to touch on something there is like where you're really just making people aware of like what you are trying to do and not being too selfish about it, just not caring about what the other person wants or needs. It's likely and they know that you're not gonna be able to offer them anything as a new entrant into the space. 

But at some point, the fact that they're willing to take the meeting with you, whether it's virtual or whatever, means that they know that there's a point that you might be able to do something for them. And I think that inherently baked into the things that make up networking is like these deep relational type of experiences. And veterans are like, the fact that we both have served at one point or another, instantly gives me more buy in into you and who you are, and like my desire to help you than anything else. 

I don't even have to know you, you know. And I think that there is already something where people have been given a chance, and they want to help out somebody who maybe resembles themselves or whatever 10 years ago. But the whole veteran thing is just like the freakin’ spice right on top of that. 

Tom Sietsema  33:11  

Yeah, that's exactly right. It's, you know, and if you weren't a veteran, the analog there is an alumni network, right? That's essentially how that works outside of the veteran community. Somebody went to Brown. They find somebody who went to Brown at the bank that they wanna work with or the law firm they wanna work with, have them out for coffee. 

And, you know, never underestimate people's desire to talk about themselves, right? I mean, that's you know, whether it's their experience or, you know, their professional experience or just who they are. It's a powerful tool. And, you know, I'm curious also. You know, it sounds like you sort of, you're on the other side of like I am, on the other side of the undergraduate experience, kind of learning how networking can, you know, positively or negatively impact your ability to move forward or to pursue something. 

And I wonder, you know, whether it's from the experiences you had on campus, or afterwards looking at your career. Has that benefited you? Or how is that I guess, how has that impacted your current role and how you're looking at the future? And I mean, I know you're involved in the ETA space. You're, you know, talking to self funded searchers talking to investors all the time. Have you taken some of those lessons and been able to apply that to your new pursuits? 

Brock Briggs

Oh, my gosh, like you're speaking my language here. Yes, absolutely. And this was something that I was gonna kind of asked you about too, but something that is if you are inclined to be like a networking type, like are you? I don't know if you're naturally extroverted, but I definitely am. And I really get a lot of energy from talking to people, something that I didn't really realize how to use effectively until kind of like later on in my life. And no, there's like a Malcolm Gladwell book, I forget which one it is. 

But he talks about connectors and like the different types of people and like, I'm the connector type, where it's like, “Oh, hey, you should talk to this person.” And that is like, that's all what this is, it really is. And so it's been unbelievably beneficial to me. I'm trying to pull something up here to kind of show some stats. But a couple years ago, I kind of got a little bit more serious about using Twitter. I have, like, beat the dead horse so much on this podcast about the value of what Twitter has given me. 

And like, I feel like nobody listens. Maybe someday, people will like, take me up on it or whatever. But I put out a tweet a couple or like a month or two ago. And it was something to the effect of, you know, I kind of described my situation and said, hey, shit. So a little bit of backstory. Later on in the year, my wife and I are looking to be moving to Connecticut for her military orders. And we're gonna be just down the road from Yale. 

And so me after I graduated with my undergrad in finance, and I kind of have started talking to people about like, upper tier finance roles. They're like, “You need to get to a better school,” like one that I've heard of type of thing. And so I went to Twitter, just as kind of like a stir the pot and like legitimately ask some questions. And so I asked, I said, hey, money's no object. Should I go get an MBA as like as fast as possible? Or should I try to go to this undergrad thing, or to a, like Yale for master's program? And the outcome and like, the answers that I got are really like less important to this story. 

But I just pulled up here. It got this one tweet, got seen by 83,000 people, 147 people commented on it, offering like their best advice. I had 10 people with Harvard and Stanford degrees sending me DMS, like offering to take calls with me. Three people who actually did take a call with me for like over an hour, three LinkedIn friend requests, like connections on LinkedIn. One of them, an associate at a Fortune 500. One of them as senior director at an asset manager with over 200 billion in assets. And the third one was a chairman of three publicly traded companies. Like you can't fucking buy that type of reach without debt working, like you have to do it. And

Tom Sietsema 

I think you're yeah, I think your one tweet has outperformed my last 10 years on LinkedIn. So that's impressive.

Brock Briggs  38:04  

LinkedIn is a bit of a joke. And I 

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah, well, it didn't used to be, right? I mean, in 2015, I don't know if you were on then, but like 2014, 2015. And I agree, by the way, it is like kind of a bit of a joke now. But back then it was like, it was a powerful tool, because you had a really small number of people on there relative to today. 

Brock Briggs

Other people are like selling courses and stuff on there. Like 

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah

Brock Briggs

How to grow your LinkedIn audience like, 

Tom Sietsema 

Right, right. Yeah, that's like the weird LinkedIn influencer thing, which I never totally understood that because I don't know how you monetize like LinkedIn posts. But anyway, but yeah, like even just you know, a few years ago, a very senior person. Because not that many people were on the platform like you would message them. And the probability that they would respond was pretty high, right? This was before they put in all these features that made it kind of difficult to connect directly with somebody that you don't have, you know, an existing connection to, or, you know, whatever it is, but yeah, that's incredible. 

Brock Briggs

It really was. And to be honest, like it wasn't, I didn't gain some like knowledge, like those 147 comments. Literally, it was like a 50/50 split of people saying the other like these people are saying one thing. And the other people are saying the opposing thing. So it's kind of like a net-net, I guess, zeroes out. But the big deal is like, you just get so much from making other people aware of like what you're trying to do. And like getting that in people's faces, whether it's through like one on one requests, or you know, whether it's Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever you wanna use. Like, you have to do that. 

Or you don't have to, but it's the free thing that you can do that just, it doesn't cost you anything and I have reaped a lot of benefits, maybe not in terms of like career wise, but I feel my network growing more powerfully every day. Like and for the listeners, I guess, like to even just talk about you for a second, you heard my episode on acquisitions anonymous and knowing that I'm looking for a business to buy. And you said, “Hey, we do a lot of deals in the northeast. If anything comes across my desk, that's interesting. I will send it to you.” That was like the first message that you sent me. So that's so powerful. And when people don't do that, it's just like, it's a shame. 

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah, it's extremely limiting. Yeah. 

Brock Briggs

We kind of got off on like a weird side tangent here about networking. But I think that it's very important and I will probably see little remnants of it throughout the rest of this conversation. You talked to me before we started recording about a couple really like influential resources to you. You talked about FourBlock and American corporate partners. Can you touch on those? What they are? What they do and what they did for you? 

Tom Sietsema

Yep, yeah. So FourBlock is a, is now actually I mean, I don't know if I would say nationwide, but they've got there, they're definitely across the US. And it's so FourBlock’s a nonprofit that helps veterans transition at a super high level, that's what they're doing. And, you know, typically what that means is providing opportunities to get in front of management teams. Well, but before even that, what they're doing is you'll have like a cohort. You'll join and you'll have, I think, like a weekly session for, you know, a predetermined number of weeks. 

And I should also mention this, as you know, I think kind of a post transition once you're out either at school or in school, or, you know, in another career. So that's kind of the starting point. You'll join one of these cohorts, which is what I did several years ago. And they bring in some really great people that will cover everything from, you know, basic resume writing skills to interview skills. Some of the networking stuff you and I have talked about. All things that, you know, once you've been through it and you're kind of on the other side of it. Again, it doesn't sound really groundbreaking, or you know, like a giant mystery. 

But when you've never done it before, you know, it can be really, it can be extremely valuable to sit in front of somebody who has been in a hiring role and has hired, you know, hundreds of people over the years and can just help you get the basics down. It's kind of how I would describe it. They also just have a bunch of great relationships. I won't attempt to like rattle them all off, but they've got a bunch of different corporate partnerships and companies that they partner with that actively recruit through these cohorts. So not an insignificant number of people, I think just going through the program will end up with a job, which is great. So that was kind of my first that's sort of where I,

I guess cut my teeth on kind of the non campus veteran network in Manhattan. And like I said, they exist outside of New York. They've got several locations. But for me, that's how I started to meet even just veterans who are going to different schools in the area, who and many of whom were participating in the same recruiting cycles that I was, trying to get into investment banking. And so there's a lot of benefits to go in there. And the team there has been really great. And they've been a resource for me even since, you know, since I've graduated and always happy to make introductions to people. So it's just one more really awesome network to be a part of. 

And then American corporate partners is slightly different in that they're less focused on at least when I participated in some of their events. They're doing less of the, I guess, sort of teaching and there's less instruction. There's no instruction component to what American corporate partners does, at least as far as I know. But what they do is one, they link you up with a mentor. So if you wanted to end up at a certain company, let's say you wanted to work at Coca Cola or whatever. They may have somebody who's there, who's looking to mentor somebody outside of the company like a transitioning veterans. 

So they link the two of you up and you know, you'll have the opportunity to kind of work together for some predetermined amount of time. The other thing that they do is they host kind of these sort of like speed interview networking events. So like my first internship in New York was at Barclays for my sophomore summer. And two of the people that I met there, ended up at an ACP event, ended up being the ones who I went to go work for later that summer. So they have relationships outside of investment banking, obviously. I mean they've got a whole bunch of companies that they work with. But both of those experiences, I think were pretty helpful in me and kind of just, I guess accelerating the, you know, the learning curve for me a little bit and getting me up to speed a little bit faster. And then also just broadening my exposure to the people that I wanted to be talking to you anyway. 

Brock Briggs

Were there any costs involved with either of those things? 

Tom Sietsema

No, they're free. They're both free. 

Brock Briggs

That's fantastic. I hadn't heard of either of these prior to going into this. I get one of those things. You always, I wish I would have known. But these sound fantastic. I've done a little bit of reading on it. And seems like they have some really solid offerings. I'll be including the link to those in the show notes for anybody listening that's interested. So you said that you were an intern for Barclays and your sophomore summer. Did a combination of that, as well as all these other things help land the job that you were looking for?

Tom Sietsema

Yeah. So yeah, the answer is definitely yes to that. You know, I think, at least specifically, in my case, that first internship was critical. Because that's sort of how you gain the credibility to pursue another one, right? And so it's challenging to get in but what I will say is that, you know, if you're transitioning, you're on campus, those freshmen that freshman summer, sophomore summer internship is a little bit easier to get into just because it's not your penultimate year. And so the employers that you're working for, over the summer, know that there's no expectation of a full time offer, right? 

And so, the one you're really building up to is that penultimate summer, where you're a junior, you go in, and you kind of wait all summer to see if you're gonna have a full time offer to start when you graduate. So what I found is that, you know, in ascending order, like, you know, the freshman summer is pretty easy. You may not end up doing anything that's really terribly interesting, but you're gonna get something on your resume that's at least somewhat relevant. And then you get to the sophomore summer, okay, you're doing something a little bit meteor there. And there's an opportunity to go directly from that into, you know, pursuing an offer for the following summer, which obviously, then you know, you can turn into a full time job. 

But yeah, that was my first actually, that was my first internship ever. And it was pretty brutal. I mean, they really, you know, that, like, you might not be doing terribly exciting work, but you're gonna be there as long as everyone else is. And that's typically like, pretty late into the night. So I got a taste of what that life was going to be like, learned a ton, broaden the network a little bit, and then really had an opportunity to think about, you know, what I wanted to do. And if that was gonna be a good fit for me, and following that summer, I actually, rather than going back into an investment banking role, I did a summer with DoorDash, out in Laguna Beach. 

So I worked in an operating role there. And really, what I was trying to do was ascertain if, you know, was there something else that I wanted to do? And where I ended up landing was that, you know, I really felt investment banking was gonna leave the most doors open for me, whatever I chose to do after that. And so the decision I made was, you know, I'm gonna go back to another summer, and really try to make a 

Brock Briggs

I, kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier, I like, it's just crazy for me to hear about like people really thinking about the job that they were, you know, potentially gonna wanna graduate with, all coming back to as early as like your freshman summer. Like it really, I think that this just really highlights the importance of why those extra curricular, not really extra curricular, but internships generally, I guess, are like helping to support the case. 

And like getting that foot in the door for like, oh, I was an intern and kind of, or at least, like you said, having a name on your resume, rather than just, you know, I'm a veteran and here's my degree, banking on that, too. And that was something we've talked at length with other people about but I mean, they tell you in like the transition class. Like, people are gonna be beating down your door for a job and that just is not freakin' true. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

Like, it doesn't happen. 

Tom Sietsema

Well, we're, you know, maybe, you know, maybe it is to some extent depending on what you know, which platform is you're on. But honestly, you know, it sort of ignores the fact that not all jobs are created equal, right? I mean, any way to earn a living is absolutely respectable, right? But if your goal is to do something, you know, and reach a certain socioeconomic status or, you know, have some level of financial freedom, you really don't have the luxury of just going and finding a job, particularly like not in the current economy. 

And you really have to be a lot more strategic than I think a lot of people are comfortable being when they haven't even figured out how they want to spend their time. And the only other thing I would say on that is, you know, if there's people out there who are, you know, maybe in mid transition or looking to go into school and kind of unsure like, you don't really have to get it right, your first job out of school. I mean, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to find. What you end up loving doing maybe your second or third job. I mean, that certainly has been the case for me. 

But I would honestly, and this is what I tell people when they reach out to me individually is, you know, if you're not sure, get a job in consulting, get into an investment bank. Just do something that has, you know, that credentializes you beyond your degree, right? And if you do that, I'm not saying that these jobs are the highest calling in the world. They're certainly not. But what it does is it lends credibility to your experience, and then you get to dictate your path beyond that, right? I mean, because people know, oh, well, if this guy, you know, got into this school, you know, he's you know, probably reasonably intelligent. Oh, he's had this, you know, this particular career path. I know, he has some sort of work ethic and they can reliably look to those things as an indication of your abilities. 

It doesn't mean you're the only one who has them. But it just makes the decision a lot easier for people. And I've found that that fact pattern can compound positively or negatively over time, right? And so I know a lot of really smart, incredibly hardworking, amazing, you know, people that were in, you know, really impressive units during their time in service. And because they, you know, maybe didn't have the right guidance or weren't, didn't have a certain set of opportunities placed in front of them. They've struggled to end up where they wanna be, right? And it's a shame to see that because, you know, there's a lot you can do out there if you just get, you know, the first couple of years right. And it's not gonna be a ton of fun all the time, but it's critical that you do it so that you can one day go and do what you wanna do.

Brock Briggs  52:38  

You said something there that I had kind of sparked a thought that I had never really considered it. But the next job that you have after wherever you're at now is outsourcing a lot of the decision to hire you based on the past employers. Like and that's where that's, you'll highlighted the importance of like titles and like where you work like, it really does mean a lot. And it's like very admirable that, you know, you've got this time and service, that means, shows that you are selfless to some degree. 

And you know, if you made it to a certain rank, like that's fantastic. But that's almost one, it's just one data point, you know, to your next employer. That same way that having a consulting job or any of these other things, it's just more data points on your history that shows and kind of gives them a better picture of who you are. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, you've probably seen it too, but you know, it's incredible. And I count myself in this category, too. Just based on, you know, honestly, like, you know, even embarrassing moments, I've had, you know, whether it was networking or just sort of reassessing the, you know, the real value that I can add somewhere. But, you know, like being a veteran, I think like you said, it's great, it's amazing that people are willing to serve their country. And, you know, I have a ton of respect for my fellow veterans, but you really have to just be honest about from the perspective of hiring managers or you know, the admissions team on a, you know, at a law school. Like, you know, from their perspective, like, what else is going on there, right? 

And specifically, in the case of employment, you know, it really is about what value you can add day one and I think a lot of veterans just struggle with that, right? I mean, leadership skills are great and you know I'm starting to feel like I'm starting to sound like a LinkedIn influencer here with you know, emojis all over the post. But really, like, it's hard to move past that and we have our own preconceived notions of like, what our skills are and what we bring to the table. I know I do. Although I like to think that I get increasingly honest with myself over the years. And I think just the faster you can do that it just improve like the Flash-to-Bang of, you know, being successful and doing what you wanna do. 

Brock Briggs

Tom, I like you and everything. But if you start rehashing the Marine Corps, like basic training manual on LinkedIn, I'm like, I'm connecting with you. 

Tom Sietsema

Some facts bear repeating, right? So 

Brock Briggs

Oh, man, there's no shortage of people on every social platform just rehashing, like, really terrible stuff that just has no context. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

I'm curious, you went on to work in investment banking. And that's fantastic. Like, that's it's super admirable. You went through like such a rigorous process. And as somebody who hasn't, but like wanted to at one point and kind of understands the gravity of what that means, like I, you have, like my highest praise because that's a cool thing to be able to have gone through. You've mentioned a couple of times and just like the last few minutes talking about drivers of and like what you're looking to be doing, whether it's reached a socio economic status, whether you wanna make a bunch of money, or what you wanna kind of do with your life, and hopefully driven by what's important to you, how have those things changed for you since working in investment banking into what you do now? 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, so, you know, I think I think early on, you know, what initially drove me to investment banking. You know, I knew that I wanted to be around people that were performing at a high level in the private sector is probably the easiest way to put it. You know, obviously, I was hoping to, you know, enjoy some of the financial upside that comes with that career too. And not for its own sake, but just, you know, just because I knew that that would translate into a certain level of freedom, you know, if I stayed on the path, which I ultimately didn't. 

But, you know, at a certain point, you know, you sort of hope that you'll have the financial freedom to kind of, you know, own your own property, you know, have a certain level of freedom of movement and also just have a career that you can look back on and say, hey, you know, I did some really impressive things. You know, looking at whether it's, you know, the number of deals that you've worked on or whatever the case may be. And I think over time, you know, what I've realized is like financial upside is great, right? 

But if you solve exclusively for that, it's what I've seen is like, you can end up pretty miserable pretty easily, right? Because the most, the best risk adjusted way to make the most amount of money is typically to work in some pretty unsatisfying roles within a couple of different industries. And so for me, I guess, how that's evolved over time is, you know, there's a threshold of financial success that you wanna see and be rewarded for your efforts. But for me, it's been an increase really in looking for autonomy and how, you know, how I wanna spend my time, right? 

One of the things that I experienced, you know, both in the military and also in my junior investment banking role was, you have very little control over how you spend your day, right? And in the case of investment banking, it's like, you know, that time you have to control may only be like a two to four hour window, where you get to go home and you know, take a shower and eat some breakfast really quick and then go back to the office. And, you know, that's obviously improved as I've gone on and done different things. But one of the reasons I really love the space that you and I are interested in is, it just allows for an incredible amount of autonomy, right? And how you spend your day. I mean, you certainly have to spend a lot of time working really hard and focusing on solving what can at times be really challenging problems. 

But the way you go about doing that and how you choose to allocate your time is just completely different, right? The, you know, the kind of the joke that I think a lot of people make is like, “Well. do you wanna be, you know, a W2 guy or do you wanna do what you wanna do,” right? And some people don't want that. Some people don't like the risk. What I've found is that I'm willing and interested in taking on an incremental level of risk to do interesting work and do and work with people that I wanna work with. And you know, control a large part of my day to work on the problems that I find interesting.

Brock Briggs

That it's just like checking off so many of the boxes of like internal conversations that I've like had with myself over the like the last year. The whole idea of working eight to five at a job where like, just any job. The whole concept of like working hours and things like that have become very fluid to me and understanding that like hey, you know there is a job that needs to be done. But it isn't always needing to be on the time and like days that, you know, being able to dictate when that gets done, that feels so good. 

And it's, earlier, I was kind of like, I probably sounded stupid talking about, like wanting to be my own boss or whatever. But it's more about this. It's more being able to say, Hey, I'm in the spot to be doing work right now. And I know that I'm most effective right now and have the mental and like personal responsibility where I won't, like, let something not get done. Like, I will work as many hours as it takes but like, I wanna do it when I can. 

You know, and I don't think that a lot of people have that kind of like inner personal responsibility. Calling and like you said, I think some people are also willing to take on the risks and that's just fine. But for those that are like, this is a very clear way I think to do it. Also, I wanna hear what you have to say, but I have to like make a joke really quick. Tell me your work in finance, without telling me using the term risk adjusted in any in just a normal sentence? 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

Like, Tom, what is the Sharpe ratio of this equation here? 

Tom Sietsema

Or probability weighting something? 

Brock Briggs

Yes, like, oh, this is a normal distribution of 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

Oh, man!

Tom Sietsema

Well, I was curious, as you were saying that, like, was there a particular moment in time for you? I mean, well, I guess, for me, it's been a slow progression of like, you know, kind of arriving at the conclusion that man, I really don't like the lack of autonomy that I have. Or the ability to focus on this project versus that one because it's interesting to me as opposed to, you know, it wasn't like. It didn't hit me like a lightning bolt that I wanted, you know, a level of independence that I really wouldn't have in a traditional, you know, corporate role. 

And I'm curious for you, if it was a progression? Or if there was like, a particular moment that you had, you know, exploring stuff outside of the military or a moment when you said, you know, what? I really liked the autonomy and the independence and the ability to kind of pursue, you know, an acquisition or to run a company.

Brock Briggs  1:02:21  

There was a particular moment, but I would be lying if I said that it didn't come as a culmination of a lot of different events, like most things, you know, slow at first, and then all at once.

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

I think that the cult like the beginning of events that started that process and got the ball rolling downhill was when I went back to school and was kind of mostly remote. So when I got out, I moved back home and was going to school, like living at my parents place and going to school, whatever. And that was really my only responsibility. I'd like save the money to just focus on school and like just, I mean, take 18 credits a semester or whatever to just get done with it. But and then kind of the pandemic happened, there were a lot of other things. But the pandemic happened and we went mostly remote. And I liked the kind of remote classes anyway. 

Tom Sietsema

Yep

Brock Briggs

And what I realized that did it was like, oh, you know, I can, as long as I'm staying ahead of the due dates, there kind of started to be this click of I can just, I can do it whenever I want. Like I can, I feel like I'm in a spot to be able to work on my homework right now. Like, I'll do it. And so as long as you're staying in that head ahead of time. It didn't quite click until a little bit later on. As I was probably about a year out from graduating. In addition, I had like two internships. 

And then I was also thinking I was kind of got struck by this entrepreneurial bug. And I was about to move from Idaho where I was living back to Virginia. And I had this idea that I wanted to open a coffee shop. And so I went and got a job at a coffee stand like a drive thru only like there. You'd live on the east coast, like up northeast like

Tom Sietsema

Yup

Brock Briggs

Try to think of what the equivalent if there is one over here, but like 50 by 50 building of just drive thru coffee, we're only young people work there and it's like super, super fast pace. So I went and because I figured I was like military bases need these, like literally so badly. So I was like, “Okay, so I'm gonna go do that.” And so I went and got a job working there. I'm like 28 at the time going through training or whatever. My boss is 16 years old. I'm like, up to date on all like the high school drama of like, what's going on

Tom Sietsema

Right

Brock Briggs

But in my head, I'm like paying attention to like the logistics of the coffee network and stuff like that. And it was then that I realized I was like “Who do these people think they are telling me that I need to work from seven to four?” Like, just the most arbitrary hours, but like, that was the moment that I realized I was like, “Oh, I don't like this.” 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

And the job that I have now fully supports working, when it makes sense and getting the job done. And so I think that that's very pivotal. That probably doesn't work for a lot of people. But man, for me, that's my jam. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, I mean, you make a good point, too, right? Like some people like that structure. And they like knowing, like, hey, I get to show up, and somebody's gonna point at something and tell me to deal with it. And then, you know, come five, six o'clock, or whatever it is. I'm done. That's it, right? And I think there's some benefits to that, too. But it's just, you kind of have to, you know, figure out which of those two paths is really right for you? And it's an interesting question. It's something I didn't, you know, I never thought about even in the military, right? And it took me some time to get there. So 

Brock Briggs

Yeah well, and it's hard to, especially if the military is really all you know. It's hard to think about that other ways of being an operating even exist. And that kind of comes back to the networking thing, a little bit of just being aware. And to be aware, you have to like ask questions. You have to talk to people. You have to like, go read a book. I do like mentorship on this veteran platform called Veterati. And talk to a lot of like young, usually, like 22 year olds that are getting out and they're like, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, well, first of all, you need to like, figure out as fast as you can what you don't want to do. And that's not by getting a degree and then getting the job and then figuring out if you like it or not.

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

Like you need to go talk to the people and do every, like the least amount of work possible to figure out your answer beforehand. I want to, oh, go ahead. 

Tom Sietsema

Oh, no, I was just gonna say, it's great that you're doing that because I think, you know, one of the things we talked about a little bit, you know, prior to today was you know, just and this rang true for me. You know, when I was, when I lived in New York City and I was trying to start my career. But you know, I think on the officer side, you know, they do such a good job of reaching back and just educating themselves on what to do, right? And like, at any given time, they'll show up at an institution, whether it's a bank or a university campus for a business school program. And they instantly just plug in to the guy or the woman that's been there for just one more year than them and they get the download, right? If I want to work at a hedge fund, I gotta go talk to this professor and I gotta take this course. And you should meet my buddy over here. 

And there's just a real lack of any of that I've found on the enlisted side. Or sometimes, you almost have, you know, and maybe there's a sampling issue too, with you know time and place. But you know, sometimes you even have like gatekeepers, right? Like, you'll have people that get in, they get a job somewhere. And they just are very deliberate about not reaching back, right? And sometimes they have some perception about their own reputation within the institution that they don't want sullied by people that they don't know that well. But I always just thought it was so odd that, you know, we on the enlisted side aren't more helpful to each other. And indeed, like, sometimes, I've had more help from, not always, but from former officers in breaking into stuff, or at least educating myself on a process. 

And my hope is that, you know, maybe it's through informal networks are conversations like this, that we can just do a better job of finding people who are, you know, they do have that sort of, they're sort of taking their own initiative. They wanna meet people who've done things after the, you know, after the military that resonate with them and wanna learn how they did it and just give them you know, an opportunity to kind of get that information at a point in time where it's advantageous to them and they're not, you know, they're not behind the eight ball. They have time, they've got this runway to figure it out and to be discerning about what school they go to, because it impacts the type of job they're gonna be able to get and so on and so forth. 

Brock Briggs

I agree. The lack of kind of enlisted and beyond kind of mentorship to like other enlisted people is definitely lacking. And there is a lot of different programs and stuff like that, but it sure seems like it should be more prevalent and kind of available and I'm not really sure what the answer is. I think that one thing that has been highlighted and made very clear to me. A lot of my ignorance being younger is like, you know, a degree doesn't mean shit. And like, all of this stuff, it just is like talking all this smack about, it's kind of idealistic about how the world should be. And as I've been on this podcast, I've gotten to talk to a lot of probably talk to more officers, I think, than I have enlisted, which I didn't really set out to do that. I was like, this is gonna be a podcast for the people, you know, like E-vibe and below mafia, you know. 

Tom Sietsema

Yeah

Brock Briggs

Like, you know, we're leveling up. But what it's made me realize it's like, man, I can count on one hand, people who have done what you've done as enlisted. It's like, there really, truly is some, like bigger factors at play like when you're going to school and like getting connected and plugged in all these things that it means stuff. And I hate that it does. Like it's frustrating. Because I don't want it to be that way. There's no reason why somebody as an enlisted person can't go out and get one of these jobs. When it comes down to just ability, but you know, as we've made very clear, life isn't really about ability a lot of the time, it's not all these other intangibles. 

Tom Sietsema

Yep

Brock Briggs

I want to we're kind of getting closer to time here. I wanna hear a little bit about what you're doing now. You moved on from the investment banking thing. Wanna hear about what your position is looking like now, talk about the ETA space, generally. What you've learned, anything that you've got for people there?

Tom Sietsema  1:11:44  

Yeah, so what I do today is vastly different than, you know what I did in actually my two previous roles in a way. And so today, I'm the COO for Newbury Franklin Home Services, which is one of several platform companies that exist under Newbury Franklin. And as the name implies, you know, we're focused on the home services space. So the genesis of Newbury Franklin Home Services was, you know, Jay Mangone, who's the CEO of the company, decided he wanted to go out and buy a company, you know, not unlike yourself. 

And got together with a couple of investors and found a company to buy basically on the southern Jersey shore that was focused on building maintenance and there's a little bit of like renovation work and new construction that goes on. And so that formed kind of the anchor investment for Newbury Franklin Home Services. And then just more generally, you know, our hope is to kind of work on the platform for, you know, in terms of the next 10 or 20 years, right? So it's not a, unlike other sort of private equity backed vehicles, this is not, you know, one of those enterprises where our goal is to kind of, you know, roll up a specific vertical, flip it, you know, in three or four years and benefit from some multiple expansion. We're really trying to build a company over the long term. 

And we're fortunate that we have investors that are oriented towards that. So in terms of what my role is specifically, you know, Newbury, Franklin Home Services, it's, you know, part of what we're doing, in addition to buying other companies is really trying to define the category of home concierge service. So part of the thesis is, you know, taking care of a home is a lot of work. And it's not a lot of fun. You look at the property management space, the level of service there is not great. At least my experience hasn't been great with property managers. 

And so, you know, part of the idea that we have is, you know, as we go as we, as we continue to look at companies and bring them into the Newbery Franklin Home Services, can we sort of begin to define a new category where you know, we're differentiated from maybe other strategies that are in the home services space. So my role is as COO and I spend a lot of my time you know, basically doing the operational nitty gritty stuff that goes into running a small business. So for the listeners out there who maybe aren't, you know, don't nerd out on you know, the search fund or ETA space the way Brock and I do. You know, we're talking about really, really small companies in some cases, right? Like, you could have 10 or 20 employees. 

And it could be anything, you know, a day for me could be, you know, something that's more strategic in nature, like thinking about launching new markets, you know, outside of New Jersey. You know, down to like taking three or four trucks to go get an oil change, because, you know, they all need to be on the road. And it's a busy time of year for us because we're opening up people's homes leading up to Memorial Day. So I can dive into that a little bit more and maybe, you know, happy to talk about how I landed on that position and why I chose to do that over, you know, pursuing my own acquisition. But that's kind of how I spend my day to day. 

Brock Briggs

I do wanna hear about that just a little bit. Just before we talk about that, though, just for some context into what Newbury Franklin does. Are you guys buying these businesses and then operating them yourselves or keeping the existing leadership and management in place? And it's just, you cashed out the owner? And you know, now you own it?

Tom Sietsema  1:15:54  

Yeah, so it could be. Well, both. So, we've purchased a couple of companies since the initial investment was made. And typically the way we think about the world is in terms of markets, right? Those are specific geographies. And what we'll do is, you know, once we decide on the market, we'll pursue either an acquisitive strategy there to buy a company or do a greenfield launch. That's kind of the playbook. And in the event where we decide to pursue a company, you know, we're big fans of definitely like, you know, building the right team as being the primary strategy, right? Like, the idea is pretty simple. If you get the right people in place, it's pretty hard to screw these things up. 

And so it really depends on the business that we're buying and what the management team is like there. So, you know, I think we're open to buying companies and bringing in a new management team or a new market leader, or what we call market presidents. But I think we're equally open to, you know, sort of an acquihire or keeping people on to the extent that they wanna continue to be part of the enterprise going forward. 

Brock Briggs

That makes sense. Yeah, there's certainly no shortage or need for home services companies. So I'm sure that there's a lot of different situations that you may encounter. And being open to different types of operational environments and engagements, I think is probably a smart way to go about it. You mentioned that you may wanna talk about why you ended up here. I would love to hear about that. I think that a lot of people are very excited at the thought of like maybe going for something themselves. And so, but I imagine the experience that you're getting in a role like this is gonna be just unbelievably valuable. 

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah, no, definitely. And so I think, yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, if you look at the world of, you know, call them search funds or ETA is entrepreneurship through acquisition, there's just an inherent amount of risk in that, that you have to get comfortable with, right? And in the case of a, you know, a search fund, you're gonna spend two years looking and you may not even have any certainty around execution. 

In the case of a self-funded search, you know, unless you've either saved up a significant amount of money, have access to capital, or you're willing to take on a pretty significant personal guarantee, which I think there's lots of good reasons to do that. But you do have to be comfortable with the risk. You know, absent those two scenarios or pads, you know, there's no better way to get a real operating experience than to go and work for an existing enterprise. And so that was kind of my thinking, you know, I wasn't at a point in life a year ago. You know, I'm married and I've got a daughter. 

And you know, the idea of raising a search fund, having some level of uncertainty about the geography where I'm gonna live and whether or not I was even gonna be able to find a deal and consummate a transaction just wasn't something that at this stage of my life was gonna work for me or my wife. And then I think on the self funded side, you know, the one thing that I think everyone has to kind of get comfortable with actually, regardless of whether you raise money to buy a company or do it yourself, is you just have to get comfortable with the idea that most of us haven't been operators before, right? 

That's kind of the other piece that I think is probably what holds a lot of people back, I would imagine. Because, you know, we can talk about what it means to be an operator and, you know, in the context of the military, that sounds really cool. But really, you don't know what that's like until you do it. And for me, I thought, you know, I had made some really good introductions to people that had already founded business. I really liked, you know, the people that were on the board. I liked the CEO of the company. 

And I thought, you know, what better way then for me to spend, you know, a few years working as the number two guy. You know, focus both internally and externally and seeing, you know, if I really am cut out for operating just in general, right? I mean, leave aside whether or not I wanna buy my own company. There was a chance I could have stepped into this role and said, “Wow, I really hate this.” You know, like rolling up my sleeves. And, you know, doing all this, the operationally intensive work and solving these problems, really isn't something I'm interested in doing. And I'd rather go back to sitting behind a screen and working in Excel. So that's kind of how I ended up choosing the path.

Brock Briggs  1:20:50  

A little side note, for anybody interested in investment banking or being an analyst anywhere, just get ready to spend about 14 hours a day in front of an Excel spreadsheet. 

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah, living in it.

Brock Briggs

Just working out models. 

Tom Sietsema 

Although you're doing a little bit of that, too, I guess. 

Brock Briggs

Oh, I do. Kind of a disgusting amount of it currently. But yeah. How long have you been in this role? And so far, would you say that you are cut out for it? 

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah, so I've been in the role now almost eight months, I guess. So it's still pretty green. And I don't know if I'm, you know, the world's best operator in the world. But I think in terms of enjoying the work, I absolutely love it. I mean, not every day is fun. But I've been pleasantly surprised at what it takes to be successful. You know, maybe it's hard to say over the long term, but you know, in terms of like getting through days and weeks with a team of people that are relying upon you and also in a lot of ways, supporting you because they've got, you know, better industry experience. You know, it's been a lot of fun. 

And I think what I didn't expect, but what should have been obvious to me from the get go is that it really is extremely well aligned with military experience. And not just and I don't mean that in the sense that we're uniquely qualified to lead companies, although I guess some people may say that or believe that about themselves. But more so that, you know, particularly for me, when you're working in the home services space, you're dealing with people in the trades. It can feel a lot like dealing with or working closely with enlisted people. 

And so I think, just in terms of an environment, it's just there's a familiarity there, that makes the whole thing a lot less daunting. That may not be the case, if you know, you go on to acquire like a SaaS company or something like that. But if you're in, you know, Home Services, trades, trade adjacent type industries, you know, if you're, whether you are an officer or you know, enlisted, you'll feel right at home. 

Brock Briggs

It's funny that you say that I was speaking with Rich Jordan, who I had on a few episodes ago. If anybody listening is enjoying this conversation, you'll really enjoy that one as well. But he talked about that. And he talked about how like he was on the officer side and the Marines, but he talked about how instead of like trade work, it's like his Marines were like, their experience was in like, rifles. And like, that was their trade kind of, and maybe a little bit like rough around the edges. Like, I know how Marines are there. Like to get down into it. And I can imagine that there's a lot of parallels there. 

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah

Brock Briggs

That's super funny. Let's rewind the clock a little bit to eight months ago and you're just starting this role. Has there been anything that's happened in the last eight months that you really wish that you would have known beforehand? Maybe there's somebody that's in this role currently or like a prospective searcher that you could maybe save from a really catastrophic mistake that you've made just in starting? Has there been anything like that? Or do you have any advice for that role specifically? 

Tom Sietsema  1:24:23  

Yeah, I mean, I think other people who talk about the space and you know, have acquired companies talk about this a lot. But you know, there's kind of this, you know, don't break anything for six months type mantra that people say, right? Where whether you buy a business or coming in to operate a business. You know, the conventional wisdom is you shouldn't really make any changes for six months. And that's true. 

But I also think what I would add to that is like, it takes a certain amount of time for you to really understand who the players are inside of your company. I mean, obviously in the industry, and you know who your vendors are and who your competitors are. But even internally, you know, there's a lot of dynamics, particularly when you come into a company where people have a lot of tenure and they've been there a while. And I think politics is too strong of a word to describe it, but you know, certainly there's relationships and dynamics there that they just are not obvious to you until you've been around for a while. And you know, I had a sense of that going in. 

But I think just being really cognizant of that and just trying to navigate that really carefully, when you come in is really critical. Because you don't know, you know, what the, you sometimes you don't know what the history is between people and former owners. And you can quickly find yourself in, you know, a challenging position from an HR perspective, whether it's retention or introducing new people to a team. And, you know, there's certain second and third order effects you may not think about. 

And so, I guess that's one of the things that I wish I had kind of heard before, you know, before starting is just to pay special attention to that. And you know, with all the other sort of tidbits of advice that people give you around that, you know, you're kind of, you're the new guy. And you really need to be a little bit of a sponge and sort of be in receive mode as opposed to, you know, dictating or trying to make sweeping changes. 

Brock Briggs

Yeah, it seems like there, it would be easy to get into the position or mindset of like, when you're going through due diligence of like purchasing a deal. You see a lot of the things that there's hair on it somewhere. You know, you find that, “Oh, this isn't very good.” And it's probably very tempting to wanna come in and like immediately start correcting things. But sometimes you don't want too many things going on at once. And you really wanna make sure you understand why the problem is there to begin with. 

And then also so that on the backside, when you do go to implement changes that you can measure your impact and see for sure that what you're doing is actually making a difference in the business. Do you wanna talk a little bit about Newbury Franklin Home Services, generally? What types of businesses are you guys looking to acquire? You don't have to give away the secret sauce or anything like that.

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah, yeah.

Brock Briggs

What kind of stuff you guys are looking for, spaces, geographies you wanna be in? Maybe there's somebody out there listening that might be looking to sell their home services business. 

Tom Sietsema 

Yeah, so no, appreciate the question. And, you know, it probably bears a little bit more explaining which, you know, one of the terms that we use, and probably what I didn't elaborate on before is we're sort of playing in a space that people sometimes call I think Homewatch is probably the most typical term that they use, at least for what we're primarily focused on operationally. And then the other one is like absentee. I think it's called like absentee management. And for you know, that doesn't roll off the tongue very well. And I don't particularly like that term. 

But in short, one of the things that we're primarily focused on is, you know, the business that we initially bought is one where, you know, you have a high concentration of second homes that people don't occupy, typically throughout the year. And part of what we're doing is caring and maintaining for that home in their absence. And so we think of the world in terms of taking our customers and you know, we actually refer to them as members, but you know, they, we think of the world in terms of taking them on a journey with us to do everything. 

So in the early stages of that relationship, what that means is, you know, we watch your home in the offseason. We open it up before Memorial Day weekend in the event that we find something that needs to get fixed. We're happy to do that. And we'll also manage any subs for major renovations all the way up to new build construction. So we're sort of in a broad space in terms of the areas that we're focused on. Yeah, yeah it definitely creates operational challenges. But I think, you know, probably the business that aligns the most with what we do today and makes for the best target for us are really ones, are just existing home wash businesses, right? 

So these sort of coastal areas where, you know, you have a number of people that have vacation homes. They live somewhere close by, but don't spend the majority of their time there. And typically, what they do is, you know, there's a person or an individual whether an individual or a company that they've relied on for years to watch their home in their absence. And those are the type of owners and businesses that we're interested in connecting with because that's what we do today. And that's one way that we can sort of enter a market. So

Brock Briggs

Gotcha! Yeah, things that you don't think about. There are really truly a market for everything. I didn't even realize kind of really before this conversation that things like that existed. But I'd imagine and like you said, an area where there is a high concentration of homes where people aren't like living there full time, or maybe only part of the year. There's certainly a need for it. 

Tom Sietsema 

Yep

Brock Briggs

Want to kind of close out here, Tom. I really really enjoyed this conversation. Where can people go to find out more about you? Newbury Home? Newbury Franklin Home Services? If people wanna reach out to you, if you wanna plug that, anything you wanna dish out there?

Tom Sietsema

Yeah, sure. So I'm on LinkedIn. And I'm just now starting to make my introduction on Twitter, so @tomsietsema and you can find me on there or LinkedIn. I haven't really expanded beyond that, have not explored my own podcast yet. But if anybody out there wants to connect, I mean, veterans, aspiring entrepreneurs, you know, any existing business owners, would love to chat and connect with anyone. You know if any of this resonated with you and really just grateful to have had the opportunity, Brock. It's been fun to talk to you. 

Brock Briggs

Fantastic. It has been fun. Tom, thank you so much!

Tom Sietsema

Thanks!